 Poster: A snowHead
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shannyla, I can see why you feel aggrieved - but I haven't seen long-haul airlines posting huge profits recently. We find that taking 3 sets of skis just gets in under 23kg. Now if you had dynafits rather than dukes... 
I do agree with ami in berlin, one fee should cover the whole journey - and the more generous international allowance should apply.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The KLM regulations are a mass of contradictions, and always have been!
Currently, their website states:
"Regulations for skis and snowboards according to the piece concept
A set of ski or snowboard equipment counts as a single piece of baggage, which may weigh up to 23 kg (50 lbs). Within the maximum baggage allowance, you may carry one set of (water-)ski or snowboard equipment. If your equipment weighs more, the special fee applies."
I'm travelling to Vancouver, My baggage allowance uses the piece concept and I'm allowed 2 pieces of baggage.
So far as I'm aware this applies to both my flights (Leeds-+Bradford>Amsterdam & Amsterdam>Vancouver), so I'm not expecting to pay any extra charges.
Interesting to see this quoted above:
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Quote:
Travel between Europe and the United States or Canada
Economy Class travellers on flights between Europe (including Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia) and the United States or Canada, may bring only 1 piece of check-in luggage free of charge.
For a second piece, including sports equipment, can be arranged at a flat fee of EUR 50. The fee is USD 50 when departing from the United States, or CAD 50 when leaving Canada. This second piece may weigh up to 23 kg (50.5 lbs). For an additional piece of luggage, including sport equipment, a flat fee of EUR 200 (USD 200 when departing the United States, CAD 200 when leaving Canada) applies.
If you wish to bring more than 3 pieces of luggage total, please contact Air France – KLM Cargo.
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Since the terms and conditions of my reservation clearly state that I'm allowed 2 pieces - but then I bought my ticket before November.
I should say that in previous years different parts of their website have displayed different pieces of information, leading me (last year) to send an e-mail requesting clarification (which I didn't get).
Still, I've never been charged (so far) for carrying skis as one of my allowed pieces of baggage, and I've always found KLM personnel at the airport to be extremely helpful.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| shannyla wrote: |
You seriously think that €600 to essentially carry two bags isn't gouging..? You are clearly Micheal O'Leary of Ryanair and I claim my £5...
Frankly the airlines' bottom line is not my concern. The last time I checked they weren't too concerned about my industry's bottom line even though we use them a lot. I haven't been on a flight that wasn't either full or overfull in a decade. If they didn't manage to reorganize and sort out their Union issues, legacy costs and all the rest over the last twenty years when pretty much every other industry has then too bad for them. And isn't curious how the most profitable airline in the US, Southwest, doesn't charge for baggage..? |
I do rather admire MOL - not that I would use his airline to go skiing. He has developed a business model that benefits his shareholders - and, judging by their numbers, passengers too. Of ocurse the bottom line is not your concern - but staying solvent, or better still, making a profit is the airlines'.
An airline should charge what it can to be profitable, within its business model, whilst getting return customers. It is up to you to choose an airline that best meets your needs at a price you want to pay. Or you can choose not to fly; I don't understand your rant.
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achilles, I think the lack of transparency is well worth a rant. This is underlined by the fact that shannyla has been quoted two different prices.
How exactly is a consumer supposed to choose an airline that best meets his needs at a price he wants to pay, if the consumer cannot get accurate information about the service and price?
And as for your last point, I believe shannyla already stated a preference to cancel the flight if €600/€650 is indeed the price.
I understand the rant completely.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| ami in berlin wrote: |
achilles, I think the lack of transparency is well worth a rant. This is underlined by the fact that shannyla has been quoted two different prices.
How exactly is a consumer supposed to choose an airline that best meets his needs at a price he wants to pay, if the consumer cannot get accurate information about the service and price?
And as for your last point, I believe shannyla already stated a preference to cancel the flight if €600/€650 is indeed the price.
I understand the rant completely. |
This is exactly right. What has annoyed me most is that if I hadn't gone to some length to discover this we would have rocked up at Heathrow to be met with a ridiculous bill.
And if €650 is the cost then the flight will be cancelled, our trip will be rescheduled and we'll book with the much maligned but fine in my opinion United Airlines.
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ami in berlin, totally up to him - I am getting tired people claiming that they are being ripped off, when they don't have to accept a deal, and especially when the industries concerned are clearly having to watch their margins.
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| achilles wrote: |
| ami in berlin, totally up to him - I am getting tired people claiming that they are being ripped off, when they don't have to accept a deal, and especially when the industries concerned are clearly having to watch their margins. |
Which is all fine and dandy if the "deal" is obvious and upfront to be rejected. I guess you work in the airline business.
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shannyla, did you check the baggage costs at the time of booking the flight ? I have only really done short haul flights recently and you just tick boxes and the price is calculated 'there and then' for you and you decide whether to book or not, what was the situation with your booking, did you have the option to add bags etc at the time of booking the flight or was this not part of the booking process? I am a little confused 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm missing something here.
The "rules" on their website clearly stated you only need to pay 50 euro one way and 50 dollar the other!
So print out the website and show up at the check-in counter with your luggage! If they want to charge you the higher amount, show them the printout.
I don't know how the credit card rules are in Europe. In the US, you can dispute it if the charge can't be substantiated. So I've charged "questionable" items to credit cards and later disputed them. It's up to the merchand to substantiat the charge vs your printout/bill-of-sale document. Since you have a printout clearly stating the lower charge, I would think you have a strong case to get your money back.
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| shannyla wrote: |
| achilles wrote: |
| ami in berlin, totally up to him - I am getting tired people claiming that they are being ripped off, when they don't have to accept a deal, and especially when the industries concerned are clearly having to watch their margins. |
Which is all fine and dandy if the "deal" is obvious and upfront to be rejected. I guess you work in the airline business. |
Nope - and I am with rayscoops about your luggage costs.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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It only gets better. I've now been informed that if the ski bag is over 20kg that the cost is doubled. Our bag with two pairs of skis in it weighs 21.8kg. That brings the cost for taking 1 bag with two pairs of skis to Salt Lake City and back to, get this, at $400 per flight (the latest price now quoted at me from KLM by the way, it changes currency and amount every time) to £500 at the current exchange rate.
I only know that they double the cost because I've now poured through their ridiculously contradictory website and sat on the phone for hours. Booking through an agent such as Dialaflight, which I prefer as the prices are far better, makes the airlines policies more opaque. The guys we deal with there agreed that KLM's policy is utterly opaque and difficult, which is why they made the mistake of booking us on with this shower even though we specified that we needed to be able to take a ski bag with us. I have no qualms with Dialaflght, they have done their best and been utterly decent.
Even a craven apologist for the airline industry could only consider that price fair and reasonable in an opium-induced fantasy.
Flights and trip now cancelled, KLM can now rot in hell for all I care and I hope that they go spectacularly bust as soon as economically possible. I highly recommend that any of you that might have booked a transatlantic flight after November with this gouging excuse of an entity to double and triple check just how much you are going to get stung for when you rock up to reception.
I can guarantee that as the season goes on and people get hit with this cowdoo I will not be the only one ranting.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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shannyla, thats weird - 23kg for most carriers.
Have you tried booking a different route with someone else?
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The free market is great achilles, but only if consumers have easy access to the information they need to make intelligent decisions.
I think the comments in this thread, along with the constantly changing line from KLM personnel, demonstrate that this is not the case here.
rayscoops, I've tried going through KLM's online booking function, and at least up the point of entering my personal details, there is nothing stated about baggage policy and no option to reserve space for extra baggage. In my experience that is also the norm apart from airlines that charge for ALL baggage.
shannyla has informed us about his experience with KLM and their baggage policy for carrying skis. We should thank him for that information so that the rest of us can make better informed decisions.
And going back to the OP, I'd say that WFT and a rant is a reasonable response to being asked to pay €600 to carry skis.
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You know it makes sense.
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| abc wrote: |
I'm missing something here.
The "rules" on their website clearly stated you only need to pay 50 euro one way and 50 dollar the other!
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That only applies to a bag with a l+w+h total of less than 152cm (62"). If anyone can fit skis in that space then they can control the laws of physics better than I can.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
shannyla, thats weird - 23kg for most carriers.
Have you tried booking a different route with someone else? |
Their rule for sports equipment is 20kg, and you would only know that if you spent a good hour trawling their website.
Salt Lake City is unfortunately something of a niche market, United has served us well for many years but the price they were asking for a late booking was too high. Having skied in Utah on at least 15 trips we aim to pay around the £500 mark. Only KLM came close, but obviously they didn't really as we now know. United were asking over £1000 reflecting the fact that they are almost certainly already fully booked. For comparison the price on United for mid-March, which is the next time my partner can fit a trip in, is £427 and we won't have to deal with anything like as rubbish regarding ski bags.
We're not rich, we're just super keen skiers with no children who had the happy accident of discovering Utah skiing when we were living in the US, and we like the terrain and especially the snow in the Wasatch, and give up a lot the rest of the year to pay for our habit. And I hate being soaked by companies and that is what this is.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Just clicked on the link provided by butterfly
| Quote: |
Skis and snowboards
A set of (water-)ski or snowboard equipment may consist of a board or pair of skis, two ski poles and a pair of ski boots.
Regulations for skis and snowboards according to the weight concept
Within the standard baggage allowance you may take one set of (water-)ski or snowboard equipment up to 20 kg (44 lbs). If your total baggage including ski or snowboard equipment weighs more than 20 kg, we charge a special fixed fee. For extra ski or snowboard equipment heavier than 20 kg the fee is doubled.
Regulations for skis and snowboards according to the piece concept
A set of ski or snowboard equipment counts as a single piece of baggage, which may weigh up to 23 kg (50 lbs). Within the maximum baggage allowance, you may carry one set of (water-)ski or snowboard equipment. If your equipment weighs more, the special fee applies.
Always make a reservation for your special baggage at least 48 hours before departure, and ensure your reservation is confirmed.
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Granted, it said ONE pair of skis but who's openning up the bag to check?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I agree with the ditch the ski tubes and pack your ski boots in your hand luggage suggestion.
I know from regular packing (and avoidance of double Ryanair & easyjet ski carriage costs) that x2 pairs of regular, downhill skis and poles (ie mine and Mrs MA's) in a normal, nylon double bag weighs about 14kg.
Ski boots, trousers, polo, socks, hat, gloves, goggles and face mask will pack into a rucksack that conforms to hand luggage dimensions. All that, plus magazine, toiletries and camera come in at under 10kg (to conform with Ryanair allowance). With Ryanair, any extras (phone plus charger, CDs for hire car etc) then stuff into ski jacket pockets - at least until through security, when they also go in the hand luggage.
So, shannyla and fellow passenger take a ski bag each, as above, plus another 8kg of clothes etc stuffed in with the skis.
Hey presto....no charge to take skis!!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| mountainaddict wrote: |
I agree with the ditch the ski tubes and pack your ski boots in your hand luggage suggestion.
I know from regular packing (and avoidance of double Ryanair & easyjet ski carriage costs) that x2 pairs of regular, downhill skis and poles (ie mine and Mrs MA's) in a normal, nylon double bag weighs about 14kg.
Ski boots, trousers, polo, socks, hat, gloves, goggles and face mask will pack into a rucksack that conforms to hand luggage dimensions. All that, plus magazine, toiletries and camera come in at under 10kg (to conform with Ryanair allowance). With Ryanair, any extras (phone plus charger, CDs for hire car etc) then stuff into ski jacket pockets - at least until through security, when they also go in the hand luggage.
So, shannyla and fellow passenger take a ski bag each, as above, plus another 8kg of clothes etc stuffed in with the skis.
Hey presto....no charge to take skis!! |
What that approach misses, and I seriously considered it is this:
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| max. 23 kg** (50.5 lbs) per bag max. 158 cm (62 inches) (l + w + h) |
so that approach won't work unless you are sure of your Jedi mind powers when you get to check-in.
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shannyla, yep - I can see where you are coming from. However lots of the transatlantic carriers have really got serious about charges in the last 6 months. On one occasion - when there were still just 2 of us - we got 122kg of baggage through. For those flying cattle class those days have now gone.
After years skiing in wyoming - we are just about to go to Utah for the first time. But I hate united and going through DIA or ORD - so American via Dallas it is. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Just looked at American Airlines policy. No charge for ski equipment on transatlantic or domestic flights.
Stoatsbrother, what are they like in other respects? Comfortable seats, decent food, entertainment? I've always suspected they were a bit barebones but if their pricing is decent that would be okay.
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shannyla, they are like any other US airline - the older fatter hosties bid for and get the transatlantic routes and they stick the grumpy ones down the back. The food is food... ish.. if you book on a 777 rather than a 757 for the pond hop you get multi-channel films and games on the seatback... but it doesn't always work so we travel ipodded to the max with a sack full of pret-a-manger from the terminal. Dallas is a great airport and does not get the immigration and snow delays we have experienced up north. And unilke United they have not delayed our bags... twice... One thing - my interpretation of the AA sport luggage rules is that as a pleb class customer you are allowed ONE checked bag - be it sports stuff OR other luggage (was 2 for the last 4 years) so naturally our 8 year old will have all his clothes in his hand-luggage and be toting 3 pairs of skis... 
achilles, We have done London > Dallas 4 times so far. I think it would probably be ok for accessibility too if that is a concern. And the weight was us returning to the UK after nearly 2 years away. Did include alpine and cross-country skis though.
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| shannyla wrote: |
What that approach misses, and I seriously considered it is this:
| Quote: |
| max. 23 kg** (50.5 lbs) per bag max. 158 cm (62 inches) (l + w + h) |
so that approach won't work unless you are sure of your Jedi mind powers when you get to check-in. |
Not if you specify it as Sporting Equipment! There's no size limitation on sporting equipments.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| ami in berlin wrote: |
| rayscoops, I've tried going through KLM's online booking function, and at least up the point of entering my personal details, there is nothing stated about baggage policy and no option to reserve space for extra baggage. In my experience that is also the norm apart from airlines that charge for ALL baggage. |
surely there is an option to add additional baggage though over and above the 'allowance' ? but I suppose the difficulty is knowing what the 'free' allowance is to add the extra baggage at the time of booking. It does sound bit of a shambles 
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Fri 18-12-09 12:51; edited 1 time in total
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stoatsbrother, thanks.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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After much wrangling from Dialaflight KLM have now agreed that they don't understand their own rules and that the actual cost is €50 per ski bag from London to Salt Lake City and $50 from SLC to London. Since they've agreed that their rules as presented to the public are contradictory, and that they don't understand them, they have refunded us the cost of two bags from what we've paid for the flight, so it looks like our trip is back on... provided I get it in writing from KLM...
FFS, At least they've made their mind up now, and bravo to Dialaflight, can't recommend these guys enough now.
I just have to see if I can rebook the car an room that I cancelled last night...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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If the airline's published 'rules' are contradictory, customers are entitled to use the one that best suit them. Not the other way around.
If there're two prices printed on the item, the lower one always applies.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I've just spoken with United here in the UK and for our flights to SLC in March they have confirmed that we can take one bag each up to a max of 23 kgs free of charge and a ski bag, (I assume that they don't care whether it's one or two pairs) for a fee of USD 50.
Last year it was free, so I guess $25 per pair is not that unreasonable compared to what others are charging.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| Glad that you have sorted it ! does this mean that KLM are now the cheapest and bestest ever and now that you have sussed the system out that you will always use them |
This is the first and last time I'll be on a KLM/NWA/Air France (for they are all one...) flight...
ever...
as long as I live...
and still have breath in my body...
or even if I don't it'll be in my will...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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There's a company now that will fed-ex your skis out to the resort - to a named ski shop ahead of your arrival. The ski shop do a full service before you arrive and they are ready to go when you pick them up. You leave them with the shop when you leave and they are shipped back to the UK depot, ready for their next assignment. Seems like a good deal to me with all these extra charges coming in from airlines. Can't remember its name though.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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shannyla, At least you got a good result in the end When are you there btw ??
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I'm still seeing red that alongside their ski carriage charges, they carry a golf bag up to 23Kg completely FREE, on top of your standard baggage allowance. How, pray, is that fair? Is the MD a golfer not a skier perchance?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Bones wrote: |
| shannyla, At least you got a good result in the end When are you there btw ?? |
Fly Xmas Day. One of my favourites days to go through Heathrow, hardly anyone there.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Butterfly wrote: |
| I'm still seeing red that alongside their ski carriage charges, they carry a golf bag up to 23Kg completely FREE, on top of your standard baggage allowance. How, pray, is that fair? Is the MD a golfer not a skier perchance? |
Do you think he might be..? Shocking, isn't it.
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FAQ
after much deliberation on 
