 Poster: A snowHead
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Say I have a friend, who may or may not be thinking of going a little larger with his skis for the coming season.
Say 120/130 underfoot.
Should a rocker and/or reverse camber and/or pintail be prerequisites - or just something nice to have?
Or should he just stay at 104 on a classic design and MTFU?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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If you're going for something that's already so specific (IMO 120/130 is past Big Mountain and into pure Powder), why not go the whole hog and get rocker etc?
And hell yeah, you're quiver can never be big enough, you should defo get more skis  Keep the others for more general back country use when the powder runs out.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Mosha Marc wrote: |
Say I have a friend, who may or may not be thinking of going a little larger with his skis for the coming season.
Say 120/130 underfoot.
Should a rocker and/or reverse camber and/or pintail be prerequisites - or just something nice to have?
Or should he just stay at 104 on a classic design and MTFU? |
MTFU
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I must admit to being slightly bemused by "pintail" - my first ever "fat" skis (some Dynastar Intuitiv Bigs with a massive 80mm underfoot) proudly advertised their pintail - as far as i can work out it just means the tail is more narrow than the tip which is the case for pretty much every ski. guess it's a question of how much pintail...
Where will "your friend" be skiing? I know someone who skis his praxis powders (proper reverse/reverse) in all conditions in Europe; i have some skis with 120mm underfoot with flat camber and a touch of rocker but i have never really learned to love them unless it is really deep... so they are a bit underused regrettably. they will be getting some bindings for this season and will hopefully get some more use this year
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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MTFU!!!!!!
Unless you have shoulder deep powder, an inability to get on top of snow without a helping gizmo and a built in speed limit of 2 mph... MTFU
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MTFU with the caveat that it depends what you're skiing - I'm sure there is a kiwi provider of testosterone substitutes available. I'd be wary of some of the reverse/reverse shapes in average Euro conditions though but I recall that you might be on a certain special trip this year where a fun rocker may be a good idea.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 1-12-09 12:04; edited 1 time in total
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For a ski that wide, go for it.
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I'm <cough> he's off to Japan for an extended weekend (10 days) of powder fest in Feb. Other than that it's standard Euro fare for the forseable.
I can get a great deal on a standard/classic designed pair at 122mm, but wondered about something with a bit of rocker after stupidly trawling tech talk on TGR.
Arno, agree about the pintail. There again the rocker just seems to be a method of getting the tips up earlier too, unless I'm missing something.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm also interested in this discussion. Can we hear from those with skis in the +100mm bracket on how their skis go in different conditions?
Kuros (132 underfoot) - sensational in any snow conditions where you don't need to use edges ie powder, tracked powder (before it gets too compressed), breakable crust. Performance suffers as the snow gets more compressed as they are wide and relatively soft. At the other extreme, you can still get down an icy piste but will be skidding all over the place. Heavy for touring and width doesn't fit skin tracks well. These are the goto skis if there is a good chance of findng some reasonable untracked stuff. They put a smile on my face 
Dynastar Legend Pros (2007 version 97mm underfoot) - Brilliant in crud, chopped up heavy stuff, fine on piste, will hold an edge on ice. ok in powder but need speed. Nowhere near as much fun as Kuros in powder. I'll take these out once the pow is skied out. If it's 50/50 I'll take the Kuros.
So anyone got anything that excels in both these conditions? Love to hear DaveC's feedback on Lhasa Pows....
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kiwi1 was heaping praise on his Redeemers ( 138-142/128/132-128 ) after skiing them on and off piste around Cervinia last Easter...
http://www.whitedotfreeride.com/skis2.php
If the powder is as light n fluffy as the hype then surely your 104mm skis will be fine Marc, and also will mean more chance of face shots
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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kitenski, that was my initial thought too, but at first was tempted by the offer and now I'm wondering properly.
At the moment I've a pair of High Society Freerides with 104. Before them I had a pair of Dynastar 8800 which destroyed the chopped up off piste; they just blasted through it. I went wider to give a little more float/stability in deeper stuff. I also used to take a pair of punter "race" slalom skis for hooning round the pistes.
Since getting the HSFR I've stopped bothering to take anything else. They're Ok on piste in that you can carve easily and at speed, but obviously don't like really hard snow. In bumps, chopped up or anything else they're superb. I love them. In fact it was this years new HSFR Wide that I'd been tempted with - but it is a "standard" construction.
That said, I haven't even been on any comparable ski so my judgement is limited.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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bobinch, my comparison:
Dynastar Legend Pro - same as you really
Dynastar XXL (194 cm; 109mm underfoot) - traditional shape but very little sidecut (40m+) and big relatively soft tips. These are probably a bit more "fun" than the LPs in the sense that they have a slightly looser feel and the tips are less prone to diving. carving on piste possible but hilarity is liable to ensue. fine for steep/packed snow.
DPS Lotus 120 (190cm; 120mm underfoot; flat camber; elongated tip (nearly rocker arguably)) - floats nicely obviously. the big thing is the "loose" feel which allows you to change the turn shape at will. you don't feel locked into any particular shape of turn. these work nicely on any sort of soft snow. icey pistes aren't great fun but you can get a decent edge to ski steep hardpack if you have to. not much fun though
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Mosha Marc, get those pontoons off arv I know that's what you're asking really.
bobinch, gorilla skis Lhasas so no doubt you'll get to see what they're like this winter.
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You know it makes sense.
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For reference, I'm pretty sure that with a proper pintail ski, the tail is also narrower than the waist? Ie it's the narrowest part of the ski. This means it won't float as well as the rest of the ski, and when it sinks the front is lifted up, avoiding tip dive.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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barry, Man the FU, in other words, stop nancying around, get your cock out and go!!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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barry, I'll let you know, I am taking excessively fat skis (Redeemers^^) to the Rockies this year, concerned they may be overkill but will give it a go.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Swirly, are you Darren Brown in disguise 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I reckon 100mm - 110mm is pretty optimal for euro land. Just make sure to buy them long enough and ski fast enough! Even on a pow day you will be skiing bumps, piste and icy traverses to access the goods.
130mm+ is a real specialist powder tool - which might only be used 3 or 4 days a season, even in places like Chamonix. Things like Kuros, Big Dumps are more suited for those lucky to be heli skiing in Alaska.
Having said all that though - apparently the new 120mm K2 darkside (rocker but no reverse camber) makes the Pontoon 'obsoltete'.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| 130mm+ is a real specialist powder tool - which might only be used 3 or 4 days a season, even in places like Chamonix. Things like Kuros, Big Dumps are more suited for those lucky to be heli skiing in Alaska. |
Appreciate last season was a very good one but I got Kuros at the start of April and did 10 of approx 15 subsequent ski days on them. The other days were touring. That was all in Europe (Monterosa, Zermatt, Verbier & Chamonix). Only used the LP's once last season after buying the Kuros.
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Skied my HellBents in all conditions last season (too lazy to carry around the rest of the quiver) from early season powder to late season slush, and once you get over the insane amount of flap when you're maching it, they were pant-wettingly fun.
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Mosha Marc,  I knew it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Just found this. Lhasas = very good for Europe mainly due to straight sidecut and tip rocker. Obviously at 110 or so at the waist they are good fun in powder but virtually anything is fun in good snow. IMV c. 110 waist and 186 length is about optimal for me at 80 kg - I don't need any more float and can get the skis planing in about 2" of powder. As such, a dusting of fresh is a good day.
The main advantage, though, is they are also good in crud and crust conditions (you're either going through it or over it) and not bad on hardpack, the latter as they are fairly stiff underfoot and I have them mounted with Dukes, which give a bit of lift. Furthermore, tip rocker means the ski can be made stiffer longitudinally without encountering the kind of tip dive or submarining problems you sometimes hear people complain about with stiff cambered fat skis. Hence relatively decent hardpack performance and the ability to mash over or through bad snow.
That said, 35m radius on piste takes some getting used to and the tip rocker makes for slightly odd turn initiation. I like to be able to see quite a long way ahead on the rare occasions I ski fast on piste. Effectively it is not far off being a fat DH ski with a really short running length and if you are intent on carving you pick up speed amusingly fast. The effects of the pintail are also most directly obvious on piste. If you get backseat at all then you will spin and at worst go flying and at best do a neat backward snowplough.
In other words, I wouldn't go back to skiing skinnier, regular cambered skis most of the time. I'm making compromises but the Lhasas are a good compromise for the kind of skiing I do.
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gorilla, I think the 35m radius is actually a reflection of the pintail - This could be anti-physics and just wrong, but I get the impression that the tip to just after underfoot section's sidecut is around 15-18m, then the pintail drags it out. Makes sense explaining the lack of that locked in tail feeling, and them washing round the end of a shorter radius carved turn. That's the only real downside they have, plus the massive punishment for getting caught back on them.
As for rocker as a pre-req of a 120mm+ ski - I think it is a big one, as it doesn't have to diminish non-powder performance at all unless you focus on it pretty hard, but the blend of rockered tip/tail (or pintail) is key. A conventional 120-130mm ski is rare for a reason...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
I think the 35m radius is actually a reflection of the pintail - This could be anti-physics and just wrong, but I get the impression that the tip to just after underfoot section's sidecut is around 15-18m, then the pintail drags it out.
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Interesting, they do come in quite sharply just back from the tip but, judging from a base to base comparison with my 179 softs (33m) and my Scott Missions (15m - spot the odd ski out) they're much closer to the 179 softs than the Scotts. I see what you mean in the pintail dragging the radius out, though.
The punishment for getting backseat did a bunch for my skiing. It happened twice last season, once the full flying reverse yardsale and the second time a spot of reverse snowplough. Hasn't happened since.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Sorry to derail but gorilla how do you find the radius of the 179 softs when carving on piste? I have some on order and am wondering if I'm going to be at mach loony carving on them.
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| Quote: |
spot the odd ski out
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Your Fischers 
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You know it makes sense.
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narc, no idea. I have Naxos on them right now and there is so much slop in them that I cannot set an edge on hardpack sufficient to let them run on the radius. They turn sharply with a bit of pilot input, though. They're quite stiff underfoot but the tip is reasonably soft: while 33m seems like a bit of a monster, it doesn't feel like that while skiing.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| DaveC wrote: |
| As for rocker as a pre-req of a 120mm+ ski - I think it is a big one, as it doesn't have to diminish non-powder performance at all unless you focus on it pretty hard, but the blend of rockered tip/tail (or pintail) is key. A conventional 120-130mm ski is rare for a reason... |
That's an interesting view. So you'd see the rocker as being cruicial?
If what's on the post above is right, I can't see I'd want a pintail - or need one if the ski had a big fat shovel with or without a rocker.
Now what about zero or negative camber. Unless you're 7 stone wet through and ski at 10mph - as pointed out by dulcamara - won't a long ski just bend anyway?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Mosha Marc, even for a larger gentleman such as myself, zero camber gives the ski a much looser feel and is helpful in low speed situations like tight trees
edit - this is quite a handy article which give a 101 on rocker etc:
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 3-12-09 10:55; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Mosha Marc, you just have to try some. It's hard to explain. The feeling is different and IMO more fun.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Mosha Marc wrote: |
| DaveC wrote: |
| As for rocker as a pre-req of a 120mm+ ski - I think it is a big one, as it doesn't have to diminish non-powder performance at all unless you focus on it pretty hard, but the blend of rockered tip/tail (or pintail) is key. A conventional 120-130mm ski is rare for a reason... |
That's an interesting view. So you'd see the rocker as being cruicial?
If what's on the post above is right, I can't see I'd want a pintail - or need one if the ski had a big fat shovel with or without a rocker.
Now what about zero or negative camber. Unless you're 7 stone wet through and ski at 10mph - as pointed out by dulcamara - won't a long ski just bend anyway? |
It's not that it's crucial, it's just that once you go that fat it really is pointless having a conventional camber throughout the ski - it's counter productive. A pintail is just an alternative to a conventional flat tail or rockered tail - flat will rail turns on piste better and hang up occasionally/be awkward to release occasionally, rockered tail will make the ski pivot much easier and feel a lot more washy, pintail will retain some conventional qualities while sinking more easily and pivoting. Kind of a reasonable halfway compromise and allows higher all mountain performance.
Zero/negative camber, as someone mentioned earlier, allows you to have a ski stiff enough to charge without the associated tip dive. On a softer ski, it allows the playful spatula reverse/reverse behavior that conventional skis can't do.
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So have you decided mosha?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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kitenski, you mean "his friend".
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Mosha Marc, imo you definately need new skis if your off to the East chasing powder. The difference in effort needed on the HSFR compared to my Shamans last year on powder days was massive.
Don't go mad on the specialist powder tool front though, no point in having something your going to hate in Europe for the next few years. I love the Shamans as they're fat enough underfoot, and the v.fat front means the rear sinks relative to the front without needing a pintail (all a question of degree I know). Folks reckon my ski's too turny but rather that than something that flaps about in anything but the deep and won't turn if you stray onto the piste.
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andyph, yes, I also meant of course - his friend needs new skis.
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Yeah, my mate. 
midgetbiker, I didn't know you had both, and through lack of comparison had always thought the HSFR were p!ss easy everywhere.
Damn, I'm just not sure what my mate will do now.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Mosha Marc, I'll lend you some Redeemers to take to Japan. You wont look back. 104mm is a mid fat 
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| kiwi1 wrote: |
| Mosha Marc, I'll lend you some Redeemers to take to Japan. You wont look back. 104mm is a mid fat |
Well that seems to be the offer of the month!!!!!!!!
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