 Poster: A snowHead
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| DB wrote: |
| but winning high level ski races is another level. |
Of course.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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snowball, I think it was me who started the hard vs soft snow debate....
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Hard snow (or plastic) is a more demanding surface to ski on... mistakes and inaccuracies that will not matter on soft snow will quickly show up.
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I'd agree that off-piste is more challenging, but hard snow is much more difficult to ski well on.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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snowball,
Never seen you ski but I suspect that race trainning might help to make your already solid off-piste technique more efficient and thus allow you to ski for longer. I'm thinking of doing some race training too as I'm also bobbins at skiing gates.
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| horizon wrote: |
OK I take that back  |
I was talking about comments on this thread partly provoking the juniors anecdote - but mostly I put it in because it seemed to me to indicate that there are skills specific to particular contexts.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I did a bit of training/racing as a kid 25+ years ago and the main thing it taught me was a good basic technique that is readily adaptable for most conditions. Any training must be better than none and skiing gates is not only an excellent discipline, it is also great fun. If I had the opportunity of doing some race training again I wouldn't hesitate.
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| snowball wrote: |
| ...there are skills specific to particular contexts. |
Equating "skills" to "technique", remeber that's only one of a package of things that affect how you ski. As I alluded to above, in BASI- (and CSIA/CSCF-) speak, this package is split up into the following factors:
Technique
Tactics
Environment
Psychological
Physical
Equipment
So those kids may have had excellent technical skills, but if they'd not much off-piste experience particularly their psychological and tactical attributes may well not have been up to snuff for that particular environment. They may well also have been on stiff GS or SL skis (equipment factor), which makes off-piste work a whole different kettle of fish.
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I'd agree that off-piste is more challenging, but hard snow is much more difficult to ski well on.
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excellent summary
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| skimottaret wrote: |
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I'd agree that off-piste is more challenging, but hard snow is much more difficult to ski well on.
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excellent summary |
I'd have thought most people find breakable crust difficult to ski at all, let alone well, I'd like to see a race on breakable crust (I wouldn't take part).
However I'd quite like to try a race on crud or slush.
(nice fluffy powder is an occasional luxury).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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They may well also have been on stiff GS or SL skis (equipment factor), which makes off-piste work a whole different kettle of fish.
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Makes all the difference in the world!
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What a good SHs chat. My own skiing benefited hugely from a little race training - which gave me no help at all at School/Uni races, but which gave me the technical understanding to bootstrap my technique at times.
On the other hand, I have seen youngsters hamstringed for a season when a ski club trainer decided that all they needed to do was gates. Result - poor results and un-motivated kids.
Re hard snow, are we talking race piste, artificially hardened to the point of ice snow? or just a groomed piste. They are a world apart...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I'm mostly wondering if I could find the time. I'm not giving up any of the three weeks a year skiing with friends and a guide, which I look forward to all year. I don't really like pistes. Apart from them being a bit boring to ski, I like skiing where there aren't other skiers or even the sign there have been other skiers. That and the occasional thrill of being in control somewhere very steep.
I normally start a holiday by doing one of the steepest pistes to get my ski legs back - and then go off piste. Or sometimes, I must confess, I am tempted off before I have even got down all of the first piste.
Perhaps when my wife retires next year I might persuade her to live in the mountains for a month or so. Then I might welcome a few days doing something different (but not to compete - just to learn something new). After all, I don't know how many more years I can go on skiing at this level.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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snowball, why not do some race training at a dry slope, away from your holiday time?
We do two hours a week of adult race training (8.30 -10.30 on a Thursday evening). There are about 20 people and 3 coaches. Most of us are in our 40s - with a few younger and a few older than that. Some people do it to improve their technique; some for the adrenalin rush of racing - and most for both. 12 of us also race each week in the winter race leagues (mostly losing out to 14 year olds!).
Whatever people's motivation, there have been very substantial improvements in general skiing (in a group in which many of people are at least at their first level as instructors - and all are strong skiers).
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Ayrshire Andy, As a Matter of interest which slope do you use?
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You know it makes sense.
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I forget where I heard it, but I did hear once that a powder race was a good way of sorting out the most talented youngsters from the rest, but I do feel they have to have experienced it first and that very few young racers do.
Ayrshire Andy, losing to ten (or even eight)-year-olds hurts more, but it is worth it when you feel you have improved.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Ayrshire Andy, certainly worth considering. For me it would be Hemel or MK. I would need other skis, though, and I'm not sure if Hemel rent good quality racing skis. Not sure I'd get enough grip on my semi-fats. Do you do GS or only Slalom? I would assume GS would be more use to me but the indoor slopes are so short and gentle I don't know if they allow it.
Do you know what your standard is on the French scale?
(Of course I'm quite a bit older than your main group.)
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Poster: A snowHead
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if Hemel rent good quality racing skis
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yup but you gotta ask, i think they are an extra £5 per session for head SL skis.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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snowball, GS is great training if you have the room..so most training in the UK is slalom based.. but don't let that put you off, your skiing will improve in gates, either SL or GS.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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T Bar, Bellahouston in Glasgow.
snowball, only slalom - room for 9 gates. Probably room for about one GS turn!
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I've not skied on piste skis for about 20 years and never skied SL skis, only GS - so perhaps I'll try those head SL skis next time I'm at Hemel.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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beequin, yes, I was bigging us up! Our juniors from less than 8 years old and upwards have great technique (for racing) and will beat us as often as not.
But I am sure that they don't get any more enjoyment out of it than we do. Big wide grins and animated discussion about the racing (over a beer) from us all afterwards.
snowball, I also count myself in the group that is 'older than my 40's'. Not sure about the 'French scale'. Nor about the new BASI levels. But (in old money) we include BASI 2 and 3 instructors; ASSI instructors and others who are comfortable all mountain skiers - on and off piste. And some who are using race training to get to that level.
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| Ayrshire Andy wrote: |
| . Not sure about the 'French scale'. Nor about the new BASI levels. |
I meant the Fleche GS and whatever the SL is called. They are run by the French ski schools and are graded against two fore-runners who are racers with known handicap against world-cup racers - so you are racing against a notional world-cup racer. Top awards are silver, Vermeil and Gold if I remember right.
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snowball, I don't know how we would score on these scales.
A few of us did the NASTAR GS course at Vail a few years ago. Most of us got Gold (but not Platinum!) - but they used a really weird handicapping system.
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Ayrshire Andy, NASTAR is based on the french STAR system IIRC... the system is pretty simple... The pacesetter for the day is measured vs a known person at pacesetter trials, and then you are measured against his speed... There should be a list, at the start box,for the day of the pacesetter times in each course, and then the times that will be required in each age group to reach the various medal levels... The medal levels are set using the times for all competitors the previous year. A gold is top 20% of population in your age group and platinum top 5%...
Your handicap is just your time related back to the original pacesetter time(national pacesetter)...
It is all here http://www.nastar.com/index.jsp?pagename=rules#whathandicapchart
Gold seems to require the ability to ski clean... platinum is a little harder (This season!)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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little tiger, how turny/ steep are the courses?... would love to see a video of a gold or platinum run if you had one....
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Ayrshire Andy,
Your name is likely to be mud at Bellahouston, I have signed up to give it a shot next month.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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T Bar, well you will know who I am (I am not Andy the coach!). But I haven't noticed anyone called T Bar signing up. Any clues?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Ayrshire Andy,
aka Bob, I only signed up today, I hadn't actually realised that they did adult coaching, when I casually enquired years ago taking my kids they didn't seem too. I have never skied at Bellahouston or raced in my puff.
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We should organise a snowheads race at one of the fridges 
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You know it makes sense.
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skimottaret, varies a little but mostly dead straight! Like I said you can just ski cleanly and get a gold - no special tactics required... I did it second time down a race course... The girls from our course that skied with Fastman both got silver their first time in a course - just not steering tooooooo much does that (we had been working on narrow track steering)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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skimottaret, oh and they are mostly pretty flat too! It is hard to get speed on them (hence needing to ski clean - you cannot afford to lose any)
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Poster: A snowHead
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david@mediacopy, not a bad idea.... but would have to be SL and those pesky poles kinda hurt without the right gear.
little tiger, thanks!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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david@mediacopy, it's been suggested in the past. Phil Brown was keen to run one at some point but there didn't seem to be a lot of interest.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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little tiger, thanks for your help on the handicapping system in NASTAR. What really confused me was that the 'target' for Platinum moved after each run. So I was (say) two tenths off Platinum in one run. The next run I was half a second faster - but by this time I had missed Platinum by half a second. Or were they just having a laugh?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Ayrshire Andy,  Normally they are very good about it as some folks are VERY serious about NASTAR racing... Usually it only changes if someone breaks the par time for the course that day... then everything is reset to use them as the pacesetter instead of the original pacesetter... Fastman will stop racing when he closes in on 0 for this reason... it is very annoying apparently when you break par time...
You can enter your name into the NASTAR computer and check your results for the day and all other results http://www.nastar.com/index.jsp?pagename=home and enter your surname... then find your first name and location... then click back to the year... goes to 1997
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skimottaret, Yep, I guess it would have to be SL. I'd need to get some guards and after watching some SL training last week I think I'd want a box 
Sideshow_Bob might be one for next Summer.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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david@mediacopy, yeah defo an off season thing. takes a while to set all the timing gear up as well.
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So, skimottaret, don't you lend out the gear? Perhaps I'll wait for the mountains after all.
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| DB wrote: |
snowball,
Never seen you ski but I suspect that race trainning might help to make your already solid off-piste technique more efficient and thus allow you to ski for longer. |
I rather doubt it - I don't normally find skiing tiring.
But it brings up the question, Why we turn: what is the function of a turn and therefore what we want from it. For the racer the reason and thus the requirement is obvious. For the rest of us bends in the track are a fairly tiny proportion of occasions.
It seems to me that the most general answer is control - it is for me, anyway. If I am skiing on something like this
I want to keep control, and any instruction should address that. The snow was fairly firm as far as I remember, but grippy - except at one place where melt water had got onto it and frozen. The control is partly so I am perfectly in balance and in control and can go directly onto the next turn without needing a split second to re-balance, in which case I may have to stop and then start again, since I am now too near the wall (and this does happen at times).
So this is my equivalent of race slope pressure, and the question is how much race training will help with this, or should I just work in situ.
(again not sure if this is Zeb or Horizon's photo)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Following this discussion with interest.
snowball, the earlier photo you wondered about was Zeb's, I think this one may be mine as I have it in the same folder with my pics, but who knows, I remember we both stopped in pretty much the same place for the photo op. Thanks for being so scrupulous about giving credit!
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