Ski Club 2.0 Home
Snow Reports
FAQFAQ

Mail for help.Help!!

Log in to snowHeads to make it MUCH better! Registration's totally free, of course, and makes snowHeads easier to use and to understand, gives better searching, filtering etc. as well as access to 'members only' forums, discounts and deals that U don't even know exist as a 'guest' user. (btw. 50,000+ snowHeads already know all this, making snowHeads the biggest, most active community of snow-heads in the UK, so you'll be in good company)..... When you register, you get our free weekly(-ish) snow report by email. It's rather good and not made up by tourist offices (or people that love the tourist office and want to marry it either)... We don't share your email address with anyone and we never send out any of those cheesy 'message from our partners' emails either. Anyway, snowHeads really is MUCH better when you're logged in - not least because you get to post your own messages complaining about things that annoy you like perhaps this banner which, incidentally, disappears when you log in :-)
Username:-
 Password:
Remember me:
👁 durr, I forgot...
Or: Register
(to be a proper snow-head, all official-like!)

Which is faster - skiing on edge or with flat skis?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I was under the impression that skiing with skis flat was faster, but someone on the Fear thread suggested that skiing on your edges could be faster as a smaller surface area means less friction. Anyone care to discuss?
ski holidays
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Depends if you are turning or going straight
snow report
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
little tiger, makes a good point so to clarify - I'm not talking skidding I'm talking skis carving versus skis flat.
ski holidays
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
The fastest downhillers on the flat sections of a course are those who can best ride a flat ski. The skis are running fastest when you can feel them floating a bit side to side. But when doing that they're simply riding the falline, not turning.

When turning, speed is all about how clean your carve is. Any skid, even miniscule amounts, constitutes braking. Carving quality being equal, a smaller radius (larger edge angle) equates to slower speeds.

One exception is that on a very flat slope or cat track it's possible to ski faster by pumping turns than by going straight on flat skis.
ski holidays
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
little tiger,
Quote:

How do you carve a straight line?



What?

OK I'll make it clearer with an example. When skiing a GS course (so not trying to go in a straight line) is it faster to ski edge to edge (with a clean carve no skid) or to maximise the time when skis are flat between turns. I was previously under the impression that the latter is faster (and if I interpret FastMan's post above correctly that is indeed correct). However, on the other thread someone suggested that carving edge to edge would be faster, as a smaller surface area means less friction hence more speed.
snow conditions
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
I think there are some situations where an edged ski might be faster than a flat ski, such as skiing warm, wet snow on gentle terrain. An edged ski would provide less contact with the snow, so less stiction.
snow conditions
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
rob@rar, ah but then you also have to allow for the fact that skiing on an edge means a significant increase in ground pressure which is likely to increase stiction.

I'm not sure there is a definative answer, it will depend on many things not least of which would be piste conditions, a hard race prepped piste will offer significantly less resistance to a soft spring snow piste, so on a hard piste the chances are that smooth edge to edge carving may be faster, whilst on a soft wet piste you are better off trying to glide over teh top as much as possible with skis flat
ski holidays
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
OK, I think I get what you're asking, beanie1. Let's stick to your GS course scenario. The biggest difference in the speed comparison of a round arc to arc line, vs a sharp turn/straight/sharp turn line, is in the shorter distance covered. Even with that straighter line there will not be much time spent on a flat ski. A lower edge angle between the sharp turns, perhaps, but very little time totally flat.

Have a look through the montages here on LeMaster's site and you'll see what I mean.
http://ronlemaster.com/images.html
ski holidays
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
D G Orf, yes that's right. I don't have an empirical answer, just experience that in those kind of conditions keeping the skis on an edge feels faster than keeping them flat. But anything which can only be determined by the clock is only of relevance to those who are racing, IMO.
snow report
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
rob@rar, and I'll concur with your experiential observations.
snow conditions
 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
beanie1, something thing I failed to mention is another reason that the straighter line is faster, in addition to the shorter distance covered, is that you're not fighting gravity as much as you are on a higher/rounder line.


Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Fri 20-11-09 8:44; edited 1 time in total
snow report
 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
FastMan, So a flat ski is only faster as with a flat ski you can go straight down the fall line, whereas if a ski is on edge you will be turning so covering a greater distance? But if that is the case would it not follow that a faster ski would be one with a smaller surface area = less friction? Which is the opposite of what is used for speed skiing.

(Right I'm getting too near the realm of physics and ski design which is not normally my thing! Hope skimottaret doesn't spot this Embarassed )
snow conditions
 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Am I right in thinking the opposite is true on a dry slope, ie edges quicker than flats?
snow conditions
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
beanie1, im no physics guy, have to say those arguements do my head in but i do like a bit of ski design and equipment set up geekiness. wink

As proof my next job in the garage is to dismantle my new GS skis so i can set em up right. Embarassed
ski holidays
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Mountain Haddock, Because of the greater friction, yes edges are much faster than flat on plastic - which leads me to think that the difference in speed between edge and flat on snow will depend on the amount of friction - how well waxed the bases are, type of ski, type and smoothness of snow etc.
latest report
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
flat ski is always faster if you are pointing downhill
snow report
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
beanie1, there are so many factors involved, it can get very confusing. I'll lay out some general truths, and you can then compile them into a game plan, for what I imagine is a race success quest?

- When running straight down the falline, flat skis are faster, because if you're riding your edges at all, you're fighting your skis desire to turn. You're always having to manually twist them back and keep them going straight, which creates drag.

- A longer ski will generally be a faster ski, because it creates more float when running flat,,, carries more mass and momentum across the flats,,, is more stable,,, distributes the force load across a longer surface area while turning so the ski cuts a shallower platform into the snow, so it arcs with less resistance,,, doesn't get overloaded by the turn forces as easily through a turn and wash out,,, provides a stronger release energy as you exit the turn.

- A longer ski will only provide benefit up to the point that you can bend it to get the turn shape you need to be fast. This is why we have different cut and length skis for different events. A slalom ski would be slow in a DH because it wouldn't float well. would get overloaded, turn too sharp and take little energy out of the turn, and would be down right dangerous. A DH ski would just never be able to make the turn shapes needed to be fast in a slalom course.

- Line and and a clean edge are crucial. Carving will always beat skid, regardless of line, but if you can hold your carve, straight wins the day.

- Base prep is over major importance when it comes to speed.
latest report
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
beanie1, basically if you want to go fast use the following 3 rules:

1. Whenever possible go down the fall line with a flat ski

2. When you have to turn carve as smothly as possible

3. Avoid skid turns at all costs

Hovever there is a proviso, it doesn't matter how fast you can go if you can't complete the run without falling over, so all of the above rules can be ignored where safety comes into play for both yourself and those arround you
snow report
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
skimottaret wrote:
my next job in the garage is to dismantle my new GS skis so i can set em up right. Embarassed


Doing .5/3 ?
ski holidays
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
FastMan, I'd guess 0 delta on his bindings.
snow conditions
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
FastMan, they are atomics and thankfully already at .5 and 3 which is what i would have gone for but as rob@rar, says i need to shim em a few mm to get flat and move the bindings a lot more forward.

These and the last pair of skis i have bought second hand have come from a sponsored skier with tiny feet. The factory guys spot the bindings for his small feet and this puts the toe piece pretty far back. If i just adjust the binding to fit my bigger feet the heel piece goes back and i end up a couple cm's too far aft. i got all techy on this a while back but having my skis set up right definately seems to help me, sorry for the thread creep Embarassed
snow report
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:

having my skis set up right definately seems to help me


Why bother skimottaret, .. you can't polish a turd Very Happy

also... my god he has small feet doesnt he! I slid the heel piece back slightly but left the screws where they were then moved the toe piece forward loads, hoping this will make them all turny and stuff. (obviously i am gambling on them being in the centre at the moment not forward already Sad )

P.s. back on topic Bases fast, edges slow, would apply the same logic in soft snow as well as you will have the drag of the ski sides (these are not very slippy) and boot etc if they're on edge, also the snow might be lighter on top where its all airy so dont want to cut through that to the heavier stuff.
snow report
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
FastMan,

Thanks for the explanation!

Quote:
I'll lay out some general truths, and you can then compile them into a game plan, for what I imagine is a race success quest?


No, just general curiosity and i think it's something I should know. Previously I had always thought a flat ski was faster (i remember geing told that in a race trainingsession, but can't remember who or where it was said), but the comment on the other thread about surface area and friction got me thinking.
latest report
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
The fastest speed ever achieved on skis, 156mph, was done on flat skis.
ski holidays
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Whitegold, but going dead straight down fall-line... hence my first comment... It really does matter if you want to turn... because if you keep them dead flat you are not going to turn just splat into the trees/fence/building etc and if they are not quite flat - you are losing speed...

Try having skis dead flat and going cross slope.... (diagonal downhill will do) it is not as quick as down fall line... then think if you want to not drop below a certain spot(next aiming point) you are sometimes going to struggle if they are that flat (how often???) so what do you do?


beanie1, I once did the rather interesting exercise of standing in a suitable place that the edge change occurred right about my head level and straight ahead of me, for the Canadian Championships... at least for that gate those guys changed edge to edge awfully damn fast - I got made to watch the difference in edge change speed between the good ones(dead fast) and the also rans(less fast) .... but maybe nobody told them they should be on a flat ski???
latest report
 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Whitegold wrote:
The fastest speed ever achieved on skis, 156mph, was done on flat skis.

I shall remember that bit of advice the next time I'm straightlining a 45 degree slope on 240cm speed skis.
latest report
 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:

An edged ski would provide less contact with the snow, so less stiction


assuming you really mean friction, rather than stiction...not sure if that's correct. My understanding is that skis slide because the friction of the bases melts the top layer of snow and the resulting layer of water lubricates the process, and you progress forwards. So being on edge may well not allow this to happen optimally.

According to that web-thingy of record, Simon Origone still holds the world record, it's very amusing to see him skiing around Champoluc (and instructing) on his 240s...
snow conditions
 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Of course on flat skis!
We are "slidding" but it's better to say we are rolling on the snow. When we are skiing we are creating a friction and this friction makes very very little balls of water under your skis on your skis base.
That's because we have different kinds of wax ; we don't use the same technic and not the same wax for waxing on cold snow or when the snow is full of water (spring conditions) or slalom skis or downhill skis.
A downhill racer try to keep his skis as flat as possible to "roll" faster.
Hope I have been clear, it is physics and it's not my job.
snow report
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I agree with rob@rar that skiing wet snow you go faster if you edge: this prevents the wet snow creating a continuous water layer which sucks onto the ski (this is assuming that there is enough of a firm base so that most of the ski remains above the snow).
I have noticed it is also true when indoor slopes get sticky (as at MK once when glycol got in the snow).
ski holidays
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
snowball, and certainly true on a "dry" dry slope wink Unless you like the smell of burning ptex of course......
latest report
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Yoda, burning ptex just occurs along the inside of the edge if you're carving! More pressure on a smaller area.
snow conditions
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Sideshow_Bob, pedant Laughing
ski holidays
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Yoda, not really, been there (Sheffield), done that (skied all day on a non-misted slope), bought the t-shirt (well, actually both the t-shirt and a new pair of skis after I melted huge chunks out of my existing skis underfoot on both sides near the edges). Shocked
ski holidays
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
Even on wet snow, skiing flat is faster. Wet snow is normally soft, so when you are on edge, your skis go deeper and are digging into snow. Skiing on flat surface is always faster. Reason? As snowarea wrote, there's thin water layer creating between snow and ski base, so skis are actually not sliding on snow, but on water layer. With softer (that's what wet snow normally is) snow, skiing on flat is even more important, since weight is distributed more equally through the ski, so ski digs less into the snow. This way, you are making it faster.
latest report
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Well I did specify that there needed to be a hard base so most of the ski base stays out of the snow - but, given that, I stick by my statement about the sucking effect of too much water - it is the reason why the ski surface, when you get a service, is given a slight wavy texture - to avoid that. I can remember an occasions when I could pass people by putting in shallow carved turns, but remained slower with skis flat. Of course it does partly depend what wax you are using - perhaps with the right wet snow wax it wouldn't have happened. (Not being a racer I only own Universal wax at the moment - time I bought some wet snow wax perhaps.)


Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Thu 26-11-09 11:57; edited 4 times in total
snow conditions
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
beanie1 wrote:
FastMan, So a flat ski is only faster as with a flat ski you can go straight down the fall line, whereas if a ski is on edge you will be turning so covering a greater distance? But if that is the case would it not follow that a faster ski would be one with a smaller surface area = less friction? Which is the opposite of what is used for speed skiing.

(Right I'm getting too near the realm of physics and ski design which is not normally my thing! Hope skimottaret doesn't spot this Embarassed )


As a complete novice skier with one week under my belt I don't know about techniques that would make you go faster when doing SG however I can tell you that the coefficient of friction is independent of surface area. Very Happy
ski holidays
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
sean1967 wrote:
the coefficient of friction is independent of surface area. Very Happy


Sean, you're going to have to work harder at casting them hooks.
ski holidays
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
comprex wrote:
sean1967 wrote:
the coefficient of friction is independent of surface area. Very Happy


Sean, you're going to have to work harder at casting them hooks.


what you on about sir?

of course it is. basic tribology.

Amonton's 2nd Law. google it if you wish.
ski holidays
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
sean1967 wrote:

what you on about sir?


a) the law you cite applies only to -dry- friction and the jury's still out on whether ice or snow belong in that category.

b) the surfaces in the case under discussion aren't rigid

Therefore, if, instead of skis on snow, beanie1 was to ask about skating with rigid metal skates on a glass surface, then Amonton might have a decent chance of giving us a complete picture.
ski holidays
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
comprex wrote:
sean1967 wrote:

what you on about sir?


a) the law you cite applies only to -dry- friction and the jury's still out on whether ice or snow belong in that category.

b) the surfaces in the case under discussion aren't rigid

Therefore, if, instead of skis on snow, beanie1 was to ask about skating with rigid metal skates on a glass surface, then Amonton might have a decent chance of giving us a complete picture.



I bow to your superior knowledge. Very Happy
latest report



Terms and conditions  Privacy Policy