 Poster: A snowHead
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Did I miss a 'heads' topic? According to the Mayrhofen PR release, they've created the steepest pisted run in Europe/?the world? at 78 degrees.
It's called the Harikiri, for obvious reasons. See the Times link... http://travel.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,10294-1479028,00.html
Anyone skied it? was it fun? I can't believe it's 78 degrees all the way...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The article is complete dangly bits. The run is 78% which is a long way from vertical. You'd fall off if it were 78 degrees - that is unskiable. Oh and the photo has been tampered with - unless trees don't grow straight up in Austria.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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davidof, hadn't thought they'd simply got their measurements wrong but disappointed nonetheless!
although you wouldn't so much fall off as simply slide ungracefully to the bottom.
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BTW David, no criticism of you intended in my comments - the run would be well worth doing and like you I'd like to see photos and hear comments. Maybe someone can check the steepness. Not somewhere I would go if it were icy. But really The Times has fallen a long way in standards under the Dirty Digger.
I think 78% is a shade under 38 degrees which is jolly steep for a black. The first hundred meters out of the Tunnel at l'alpe d'Huez is around this steepness (there is a track which has ruined the charm of the Tunnel).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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davidof, The Diretissima in Kitzbuehel is billed at 70%, i.e 35 degrees versus the 38 degrees for Harakiri. It's steep, but not crazy. I wonder how much difference the extra 3 degrees make, at least in your head, if not in reality.
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David Murdoch, at 78 degrees, the piste basher would fall off and couldn't do its job. At 38 degrees, it's no steeper than many blacks around the world.
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I ran into a piste No. 38 in Kitzbuhel that displayed the gradient at the top. It was pretty steep but not out of this world as both the wife and I went down (both over 55 and self taught skiers learned skiing after 50 hence we cannot be any good). The snow was favourable at 2004 Christmas. Looking at the piste map it is the Diretissima alright and the 70% gradient sounds about right. Thus the 78% at Mayrhofen Harikiri may not be that scary for being at 38 degree, as Mike Lawrie has commented.
The Ponder's picture on the other hand looks real steep to me. I will have problem going down a 45 degree slope like that. Off my head I remember Piste No. 14 Muttleren in Schilthorn/Murren also has a pretty steep section but it was short and fear is less. I think the problem of loosing balance on such a steep slope is the difficulty to halt the sliding.
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ssh, Steve, you didn't read the article did you? They run cables down from an anchor at the top so they can piste it.
You're right though, 38 degrees ain't that bad, certainly not davidof enough to justify an article in the Thunderer of old - that paper isn't what it used to be. I seem to recall that the Wall is around that, gets pisted occasionally and is about a kilometre long.
So maybe the Harikiri is the steepest regularly pisted run in the world? 
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saikee, any idea where that is? Thanks
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Of course, a smooth steep slope is likely to be easier to ski than a gnarly steep slope, so there's an in-built contradiction in Mayrhofen's boasts - the act of grooming is, as always, to take out the moguls and 'defects' and attract more skiers.
As davidof points out, 78% bears no relation to "vertical". It means the vertical is 78% of the horizontal, so - yes - it's a fraction of 100% (45 degrees). The journalist has simply swallowed the PR puffery of the resort, though the article does at least prompt a debate. I'm certainly inclined to question whether it's the steepest ski run currently groomed.
The Kassbohrer 'Winch Cat' was introduced (from memory) about 15 years ago. I believe it's used - for example - on the Les Arcs KL (Flying Kilometre) track above Arc 2000, where the world speed skiing record is set. I don't know the gradient of the top of that slope - I'm sure we can find out - but I'd be amazed if it isn't steeper than the Mayrhofen slope. Admittedly not many members of the public go from the top, and it certainly doesn't class as a public piste!
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Fri 18-02-05 10:40; edited 2 times in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I think that pic is spanky's ladder? maybe flute bowl. Ponder has just got back from Whistler
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Right well I can beat that easily, The Zielschuss at the end of the Lauberhorn is measured at 42 degrees and is pisted ! Mind you thats only the end of the run with a verticle drop of roughly 30M or 100ft the average over the run is closer to 15 degrees
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Is not 78% equal to 70.2 degrees ie 90degrees / 100 x 78. That is how road inclines are measured ie 50% (or 1 in 2 of 90 degrees) =45% angle. Now that is steep. More like a pisted jumps 
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You know it makes sense.
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David Murdoch,
Sorry for omitting the reference of the photo. It was in our Forum "Bend ze knee" in this thread on Steeps by ponder not long ago, referring to the "Couloir Extreme" in Whistler. Looking at the piste map I think it is one of the highest run in Whistler side.
From my engineering background the 78% is 0.78 vertical and 1.00 horizontal. Mathemetically it should be the Arctangent [0.78] = 37.95 degrees.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Fri 18-02-05 10:25; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I'm going there at the end of Feb. Would you like me to take my protractor! I'll have a look and take a picture for you all.
The run in Kitzbuhel, No. 38, is really steep but only in parts, not all the way down like Mayrhofen claim. If it's groomed its not so bad as you can traverse across, but if you fall, you'll slide for ages.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Forgot to add, they also got the colours of the runs wrong in the article, it's blue that is the easiest not green, then red and black.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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hayley t, I don't think so
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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hayley t,
Mixed up Swiss with Austrian resorts?
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Steepest groomed runs I know of are in Silver Star, Canada. A number of the single blacks over the back are regular groomed by winch cats, and the steepest of these is Normania. And they are not just steep pitches - the whole run is equally steep, but since I can't find anything which claims an angle, sorry I can't quote one! A fall on any of these runs when the snow is 'firm' results in a *very* long slide. Fortunately the snow is usually very grippy.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Frosty the Snowman
A gradient is measured as vertical rise divided by either a) the distance travelled along the slope (v/s) (this is the UK road convention) or b) (as saikee said) the horizontal distance (v/h) (I think I remember being told years ago this was the convention in Europe, although I can't find confirmation of that at present). The difference is pretty irrelevant at normal road or rail gradients, but does become significant here. If the former is used, angle = arcsin(v/s), so angle(78%) = 51 degrees, or if the latter angle = 38 degrees. So if the number quoted has been translated into the British convention (although probably unlikely) the slope may actually be rather significant after all.
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Frosty the Snowman, well a definite maybe. In the mathematical convention (as described by saikee, and possibly used on European roads), you are correct. However in the British road convention, rising 1m vertically along a 45 degree angle would result in you travelling 1.41m (i.e. sqrt(2)) along the surface of the slope, so the gradient would be 70% (1/1.41); 1 in 1 would be 90 degrees, 100% and vertical, 1 in 2 would be 50% and 30degrees. There would seem to be fairly strong arguments for both conventions - the mathematical has conceptual simplicity and is easy to draw, but the 'British road' is eminently practical, as it's quite difficult to measure a horizontal distance directly into a hillside, and 100% is a good conceptual endpoint (whereas the other convention would give 'infinity'% for vertical). The only one that seems to avoid confusion though is to quote the angle directly in degrees.
But how many 45 degree angels can fit on the head of a skipole? 
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| Quote: |
a) the distance travelled along the slope (v/s) (this is the UK road convention)
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GrahamN, are you sure: I've never heard that before, and I did a civil engineering course. As far as I am concerned 78% = 38 degrees from the horizontal and I think most road users and piste users would understand that (apart from the ones who confuse % and degrees)! There is no way Harikiri is 51 degrees, must be 38.
As for whether it is the steepest piste in the world, if one assumes they mean the average gradient from top to bottom, then I've not heard any other resort refute that claim. It was my understanding they had only ever claimed the steepest run in the Alps, but there you go. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that there are some dble black diamonds in N America that can beat it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I think the British convention in here warrants a look at the practical side too.
First I cannot confirm the measuring the gradient by the sloping side is correct or not and so I just assume GrahamN's word is true. I also did a civil enegineering degree too as "the ice perv" but have not specialised in highways.
From my driving experience with a 4x4 the steepest Bristish road I have come across is only 1 in 4 (Hardknot pass in Lake District). That should refer to 1 vertical against 4 horizontal. Thus there aren't many Bristish road steeper than 1 in 4 or 14.036 degrees.
If we measure the gradient using the sloping side for the Bristish roads then the 1 in 4 should be the sine angle of (1/4) or 14.477 degrees, instead the tangent of (1/4) or 14.036 degrees. Therefore the maximum error possible in measuring the gradient of a Bristish road by its slope side against using the horizontal length is a mere 3%. Therefore in practical term the method of measurement matters very little, especially the majority of the Bristish road hardly steeper than 15% where is error is reduced even to only 1%. I can understand in surveying one can only measure the physical length of the sloping face and take the level readings of its two ends and therefore the definition of a gradient may be lossely used by the British road engineers.
In gradient term we seldom hear a value bigger than 100% and a search by Google seems to support the piste gradients are measured against the horizontal distances mainly.
In conclusion it appears risky to assume the piste slope gradient can be assessed based on the Bristish road convention as we simply do not have steep pistes in the British Isles for this method to apply to the point that it can be regarded as the de facto standard.
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| Quote: |
| From my driving experience with a 4x4 the steepest Bristish road I have come across is only 1 in 4 (Hardknot pass in Lake District). |
There are quite a few 1 in 3 hills in the Esk Valley in North Yorkshire - but they aren't as long as Hardknott.
And in the centre of Harlech in N Wales there is a road signposted as 1 in 2.5!! I've walked down it, and it's seriously steep. Would not like to walk up it.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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RobW,
I have driven through North York and came across some really steep roads before. Thanks for the info.
The steepest gradient I walked was an access road to Emosson in the Swiss border with Chamonix. Can't quanitfy the angle there but it was really hard work just to go up there to see the footprints left by some stupid dinosaurs.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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"the rake" in ramsbottom is 1 in 4, it has a a handrail for pedestrians!The recent tour of britain went up it.
THere are m as robw says, plenty of 1 in 3 hils in north yorks, the road from Hutton-le-hole as it approaches Rosedale Abbey for instance
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At 1 in 3 the difference of relating to the slope side and the horizontal side is 5.6%, as sin(1/3)=19.471 degrees whereas tan(1/3)=18.435 degrees. 19.471/18.435 = 1.056 or 5.6%. Mathemetically sin(angle)=tan(angle) is the angle is sufficiently small (O level stuff).
Think I shall be in North York this weekend instead of Scotland. I can remember very well about the steep slopes there because I was testing a semi-automatic used VW Beetle (about some 30 years ago). It was one of those funny invention that by touching the gear stick the clutch would kick in as it didn't have a clutch pedal. The car was just like any ordinary Beetle minus the clutch pedal. I was amazed by its 1600cc engine able to reach the summit by the top gear! It has a torque converter of some kind but also a functional gear shift. The slope was definitely marked 1 in 4 or 1 in 3 as it was uncommon to run into such gradients.
In skiing I believe our fear of the gradient is primarily due to the lack of experience of coming down from such steep slopes. In hill walking we would be at least be able to side step a slope with the body close to the ground and using both hands hanging onto something firm. In skiing our luck depends on just the edge of the skis.
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You know it makes sense.
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Here is a cable winched piste basher at Tignes
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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David Murdoch, I did read the article. The first winch cats (US terminology) were used by Vail to groom the Birds of Prey at Beaver Creek. They are probably close to that steep. However, I stand by my comment: at 78 degrees there wouldn't be anough gravitational pressure to keep the cat on the slope; I don't believe 78 degree slopes can even hold snow under most circumstances. That Tignes basher is on a slope that's about 30 degress from the look of it. Can you see how the cat would just dangle from that cable if you more than doubled the incline?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| saikee wrote: |
| The Ponder's picture on the other hand looks real steep to me. I will have problem going down a 45 degree slope like that. Off my head I remember Piste No. 14 Muttleren in Schilthorn/Murren also has a pretty steep section but it was short and fear is less. I think the problem of loosing balance on such a steep slope is the difficulty to halt the sliding. |
Ponder, nice Volkls!
That slope looks fun!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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ssh, I've seen the Sudan Couloir, but never skiied it, but yeah, I've been told it's fun
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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ssh, you are quite right and my contrite apologies for suggesting you hadn't paid full attention.
I think someone needs to get complete confirmation from the resort!
By the way, ssh have you ever skied at TLH Heliskiing? You face (piccy elsewhere) looks a little familiar...
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ssh,
That snow in that pic looks good to me. You would have to want to ski that..
Do we know where it is? That looks like a morain wall at the bottom..!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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JT, if you're talking about Ponder's pic, it is the Sudan Couloir on Blackcomb (now known as Couloir Extreme)
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Wear The Fox Hat,
Yes, I was, thanks.
I have heard about that but haven't got to Whistler yet
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I think our forum should have a photo gallery on the "interesting" runs that some regard as "fun" while others could wet their pants.
So we should have at least
(1) Groomed - 78% or 38 degrees Mayrhofen Karikiri, First section of Tunnel at l'alpe d'Huez (groomed?) similar
(2) Groomed - 70% or 35 degree Kitzbuhel Diretissima
(3) Groomed - Zielschuss at the end of the Lauberhorn is measured at 42 degrees and is pisted
(4) Ungroomed - 45 degree "Couloir Extreme" in Blackcomb/Whistler
Please feel free to add or amend
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sat 19-02-05 22:25; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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David Murdoch, no, but I'd like to. I'll promise to write a great recommendation if you want to take me along!
However, I'm adopted, so I may have a twin or other siblings running around the planet...
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FAQ
. As I now understand it a 45 degree angel would be a 1 in 1 gradient, 1ft along-1ft up, which would be a 45 degree angle but a 100% gradient 
...I think