 Poster: A snowHead
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I am a very novice skiier and my mother has never skied in her life. I want to go to somewhere in Europe and thought Chamonix looked good until I came across this:
http://www.chamonix.eu.com/death-stats/
I'm sure everywhere has its fair share of these accidents but are these normal figures? Are there so many accidents just because it's popular? How come Mt Blanc seems to come off so badly?
thanks,
Einar
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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einarh, welcome to 
I'm sure someone more informed will be along shortly, but I think Chamonix is a mecca for your more extreme skiing - i.e. off-piste.
I don't think it is any more dangerous for normal piste skiing
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Chamonix on-piste skiing is as safe as just about anywhere.
The pistehors stats from which the table was prepared are overwhelmingly for ski-touring and off-piste skiing or climbing.
But for a novice skier and a beginner Megeve might be better than Chamonix.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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einarh, I have never skied in Chamonix, but I think that looking at data like that without any of the background is not likely to give you a realistic view of what is likely to be relevant for you. If you click through onto the pistehors research page, you can view fatalities by year across France, and if you go into each year, you will see that the vast majority of fatalities are caused by avalanche or off-piste or backcountry skiing.
As you and your mother are both beginner/novice standard, and are undoubtedly going to stay on piste (and probably in lessons), the chances of you being caught in an avalanche or falling through a crevasse or off a cliff are virtually nil.
Without looking at data across the alps, I can't say if Chamonix is inherently more dangerous than other areas, but I think it is more likely that it is the kind of activities that people do there (it's a bit of a mecca for adventurous sports) rather than there being anything dangerous about the place itself.
HTH
D
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einarh, Remember for a start that 39% of those deaths are from climbing, not skiing.
Then as others have said, almost all of the deaths will occur off-piste. It is a very popular area, and particularly popular for off-piste skiing.
It probably isn't the best choice for a first time skier, but not because of safety, rather because it doesn't have as much beginner terrain as many resorts, and is rather disjointed, so you might find yourselves unable to meet at lunchtime easily.
In fact TBH, as beginner skiers, you are probably best off staying away from almost any of the big name resorts, because you won't be able to use all they have to offer, but will still pay a premium for it.
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einarh, no, it's pretty much like anywhere else for on piste. Those stats are almost certainly relating to mountaineering/ski touring, etc.
Why did you like the look of Chamonix? It's not normally considered a great area for new skiers (although it has many other attractions).
You might find other areas perhaps better suited.
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Chamonix is gash for first-timers. The lift system is disjointed and highly inconvenient. Waiting halfhour in the cold for a jampacked bus, followed by a scrum to the lifts is a bad introduction to the world's greatest sport.
Head to a resort where the lifts are right nextdoor to the accommodation. It is far more enjoyable.
Try Meribel, Val Thorens or Les Arcs 1800.
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It probably isn't the best choice for a first time skier, but not because of safety, rather because it doesn't have as much beginner terrain as many resorts, and is rather disjointed, so you might find yourselves unable to meet at lunchtime easily.
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I'd strongly agree with that. Indeed - and without doing too much disservice to Chamonix, a world-famous mecca for mountain activities of all kinds - almost any ski resort in the Alps could be better than Chamonix.
The reasons Mt Blanc causes a lot of fatalities are because it is very high, the weather is often murderous, and it is covered in glaciers and snow which are often unstable. And for all those reasons lots of mountaineers are drawn to it and most other people stay well away. The pisted slopes in Chamonix are not on Mont Blanc, as such. Indeed, and ironically, many of the beginner areas in the Chamonix Valley sometimes suffer from lack of snow, because the valley and town itself are at quite a low altitude.
If you give some detail about when you would like to go, and what sort of holiday you are thinking of, I'm sure you'll get heaps of suggestions for nice holiday places in France, Austria, Italy or Switzerland. And maybe some others too.
Welcome to Snowheads.
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einarh, before you book do some more research into the resort!!
yes Chamonix is an awesome resort for a whole host of reasons... it's less than an hour away from home, I have a lot of friends and I do a lot of business there............................... however I personally don't get on with it, never have done..........and as a result I'm never inclined to throw my skis in whereas during the season I usally always do...... on Chamonix days I take them out!!!
I think before anyone can say yea or nea to you about it's suitability then they need to know more about your holiday... and your mother>>
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Listen to under a new name, he lives there and knows the area and his assertion that Chamonix is 'wasted' on new skiers is correct.
Or if DM doesn't like the words I have put into his mouth,  I'll say it. Fantastic area but the only plus for a new skier and mother in your position is that the town is worth a day or two walking round. The skiing areas are disjointed to get to and people put up with this because the terrain is so great, it is worth it...but you need to be the type who wants to take advantage of that.
There are plenty of more suitable places and I'd offer Megeve an 1hr down the road as one. Nice pretty, albeit chic-read-expensive town possibly, but the skiing is gentle, almost sedate and a great confidence booster, IMO.
Further along that valley a few other resorts may well be the ticket and pam w could tell you more about those . Also Les Get in the PDS.
France has some amazing skiing but for novice and newbies, my first thought is for the more all round relaxed holiday of say, Austria, might suit better. That is not to say France can't do this, but the all round ambience of Austria, the picture postcard villages, the lively bars off slope which can be a haven for tired skiers and early-evening apre might appeal. I guess if one wanted a bit of focus on other things bar the skiing, then Austria should be on your list.
But..this is your holiday, so post a few things about you expectations and desires and I am pretty sure that a few here will offer decent suggestions based on experience 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Chamonix is my favouirite ski resort. BUT imho as a novice with a complete beginner in tow you should steer clear unless you want to soak up the 'extreme sports' atmosphere.
Oh and it is bloody expensive too 
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For true beginners I think the separate nursery area at Le Tour is fanatastic but the death patch at Brevent leaves a lot to be desired. I imagine Les Planards is good as well. The big plus for Chx is lots of stuff to do if you don't ski full time.
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You know it makes sense.
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Like others on here, I wouldn't suggest Chamonix for beginners.
Other places in France already mentioned are great but the resorts are mostly recently constructed. If you would like some picture-postcard traditional alpine ambience as well as the skiing then Austria might be the place. OrWengen in Switzerland perhaps - though I can't remember what the nursery slopes are like. Certainly most of the slopes are fairly easy and the mountains are spectacular. It depends if you like the idea of a cog railway for some of the main uplift to the slopes. The resort itself is traffic free.
Your mother might have a better holiday if she had a few lessons in a snow dome before she goes. That way she won't spend half the holiday on the nursery slope but will get the full high-mountain experience.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Most of the ski deaths are probably people falling into crevasses on the Vallée Blanche. It's often treated like a piste but it is riddled with crevasses and lots of people fall in every year. You also have a lot of people ski touring up to Mt Blanc which brings high crevasse and avalanche risk.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I agree with what's been said - it's a wonderful place but as a total beginner you're paying a huge premium for terrain that you won't be using or probably even get to see. Any particular reason you liked the look of it? It might be better kept for when you're a bit further on.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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einarh, wot the others said...
As novices - you need a small, friendly quiet area with ski-in/ski-out or a hotel very close to the piste/ski-school meeting point and a nice atmosphere.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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What standard of Boarder do you have to be to really appreciate the resort? Three of us are going next year, one of the lads is instructor standard, myself and another guy have been boarding about 5 years now doing blacks without much problem but reds seem to be more our terrain if honest!
Thanks fot any opinions.
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stubu1980, your standard sounds fine to really enjoy Chamonix. My only concern is that with boarders (and more recently skiiers with the new tech/materials/construction appearing on skis) it is too easy to become quite able off piste long before you have the knowledge and experience to be safe (and I do include myself in that group). So be aware, and enjoy 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Totally agree with you there, we did a bit of off piste last year in Val disere and Tignes but not much as was aware of the danger if wandered a bit too much off the safer areas! We will prob look to hire a guide this year to show us some easier off piste! So really looking forward to it just need the conditions now!
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stubu1980, You sound fine. But are you going to stay at Chamonix or Argentierre a bit further down the valley? Worth thinking about it - you may spend more time at that end of the valley. You will easily be OK to do the basic Vallee Blanche (with a guide) so long as you can get down easy off piste.
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stubu1980, You'll be fine, & there's tons of nice, easy off-piste in Chamonix, it's not all rappelling into couloirs with an ice axe in each hand. Flegere is particularly good for this - there's often freshies to be found in hidden spots there days after a snowfall - and so is the VB. Never follow tracks in Chamonix as the makers of those tracks could have had anything from ropes to a paraglider! A guide split between you for a couple of days would be money really well spent. I recommend Neil http://www.neil-hitchings.com
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 4-11-09 17:00; edited 1 time in total
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stubu1980,
Of all places that is why Chamonix can be SOOOO dangerous. If you are sensible you'll be ok..but if you aren't then it can really bite.
There are too many good skiers who know where to go and what they are doing to blithely follow tracks. If you can't see the way down and make sense of it...then best to think again. You don't have to go far to get into trouble, but with a bit of sense and forethought, you'll have a great time.
Do hire a guide and do something over the back somewhere, the guides are an education themselves and it will probaly make the holiday even better. Talk to them about what you want to do and ask questions so you don't get too much of a Tourist day... but DON'T talk yourselves up.
The guys have seen it all...
Be straight with them, and they can tailor a day to your needs..
Outstanding majestic valley, IMV...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Were staying at Les Balcons du Savoy in Chamonix if you know where that is? Its ski in ski out so should be easy enough to get up ans away in the morning! A guide looks like a sensible thing to do and thanks, ill have a look at the link for Neil Hitchings! Is there a lot of pisted reds and kept blacks or is the majority of boarding off piste? 
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stubu1980, Hmmm, technically les Balcons is ski in/out, but only onto the Savoy nursery slope (which isn't linked to anything else). I doubt you'd even use it. Your most likely uplift will be Brevent bubble, a short walk above you. Actually, saying that, you may be able to get some sort of uplift up to above the Brevent base station, but it's not really what I'd be looking for with a ski in/out description.
You could also check out Lars at www.mountainpenguins.com for board oriented guiding.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Thanks for all the feeback guys - very helpful. The general consensus seems to be that Chamonix is off the
list for the likes of me and mother dearest! The reason I thought Chamonix might be nice was just because
I really liked the look of the photos! I'm going digest these posts and do a bit more research on the resorts
mentioned in here.
Thanks again!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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stubu1980, Yes I've heard good reports of Lars too. You can use the Savoy lift to get yourself part the way up to Brevent, I think. Brevent is linked to Flegere so the south side of the valley is your oyster! There's lots of nice off-piste at Brevent too, like the Hotels face which you can see from the slopes. Plenty of good pistes to keep you happy - work your way over from Brevent to the far side of Flegere and go up the Floria drag. My favourite pics here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/chaletlaforet/sets/72157603867305137/
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Wed 4-11-09 17:00; edited 1 time in total
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What nobody has bothered to mention is the gem of a Chamonix Valley resort that is Les Houches. www.leshouches.com Absolutely perfect for beginners, safe, slopes, the longest pisted vertical in the valley. A choice of 10 different mountain restaurants (more than the rest of the Chamonix Valley added together) And you can ski to the floor of the valley on a blue run.
The lift pass is cheaper than Chamonix. And Les Houches is just 5 minutes by car from central cham, or 15 minutes on the free ski bus.
Also, if you find you or your mother doesn't take to skiing, then because Chamonix is a large town, and not a ski resort in the middle of nowhere, there is loads to do away from the piste.
Hope this helps!
Links: Skiiing - www.ski-leshouches.com
Transfers: www.chamexpress.com
Tourist Office: www.chamonix.com www.leshouches.com
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You know it makes sense.
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firebug, love those photos. Absolutely stunning!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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bobinch, thanks!
Les Houches is a good suggestion. What time of year were you thinking of, though?
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Wed 4-11-09 16:58; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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you can ski to the floor of the valley on a blue run.
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not when I stayed there you couldn't, even the top of Les Houches was a slushfest and we didn't bother with it after one attempt. Le Tour was better, but not great and the queues to buy a lift pass and get up the initial lift were the worst I've encountered anywhere. We drove to Flaine for a couple of days - where conditions were passable. We were just unlucky, though. I think it was mid-ish January. It's true that Chamonix is a good town for other things, and on a good day nobody could fail to be thrilled by a trip up the Aiguille de Midi.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Whilst I am sure there are many other places better for beginners (as others have said) my wife was a complete beginner on our trip to Chamonix in February this year.
She went with a novice group and an instructor and had in her words 'the best time ever' (this could though have been because she also wasn't with me......)
She had no problem with any of the pistes that they went on (greens and blues) and one red in Flegere, but particularly loved Le Tour and Les Houches as easy skiing for beginners.
I would say, get into a group for lessons or a if you can afford it, a private instructor for a couple of days, and you will have a great time where ever you eventually decide to go.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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brian
brian
Guest
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bobinch, now, now, we can clearly see that run is marked red, not suitable for beginners at all.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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bobinch,
Good call on that archive
brian, love that Espace
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pam w, you were unlucky. It was almost skiable till the end of the season last year (although, granted we had an unusually good winter). If it's quiet it's a top home run (being a DH course and all).
Chamexpress, We probably ski LHs more than any other Chamonix area as we often have less experienced friends with us. Lots of good stuff, great on a powder day and as you rightly say not just more restaurants but massively better restaurants as well. Terrain and Taniere come instantly to mind. Am massively looking forward to my first Terrain "Menu Skieur".
Le Tour also has a really cool resto but I can't recall the name.
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I ski in Chamonix every year. I stay in Argentiere and have have friends who live there. It isn't a great place for beginners, but is a wonderful place to spend time off the slopes, so it's more than a ski resort. The ski areas are seperate and it's a bus ride between them. If you've never skied, then the Le Tour slopes or Les houches are amazing for first timers. It is a working town and full of real mountain people. Poseurs get laughed at.
I strongly urge you to visit, It is the best place on earth. Have your lessons in the areas mentioned above and take a ride up the Aigiulle de Midi, for the view. The only downside to Chamonix is that it will spoil you, as all other resorts pail into insignificance.
Don't worry about the death stats. You can make any story out of statistics.
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letts, welcome to snowHeads. I entirely agree with you, I just love Chamonix, and the skiing all around it, even though I'm not a gnarly skier at all.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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As an experienced skier I'm prepared to take all the longish bus rides to get to the different parts of the valley for the sake of the tough skiing, but it is really unnecessary for less experienced skiers who can get what they want at more convenient resorts.
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