 Poster: A snowHead
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| gravystuffing wrote: |
| When you walk/run you are moving across the central line and are constantly out of balance. |
I think you are in a state of dynamic balance rather than being out of balance. Big difference between dynamic balance (eg running, skiing) and static balance (eg standing on one leg without moving).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
I do not teach but when I tell people my philosophy of how to ski I say for sure that you should always be out of balance. When you walk/run you are moving across the central line and are constantly out of balance. You do not fall over because your reflexes prevent that. Try and balance a stick on the end of your finger. It's quite difficult because the stick has no reflexes. If you act like a stick stiff and trying to keep in balance you will fall down. Relax and forget about balance and your reflexes do the job for you. Skiing then becomes as natural as walking or running.
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Do you not mean balancing, rather than out of balance? I agree that when skiing it is rare that you will be perfectly in balance (although that doesn't mean it's not something you should aim for). You are constantly making small adjustments to ensure you remain in balance (as when running the example you use), so I quite like the term "balancing". To call it "out of balance" though is misleading. Out of balance is what you are when you're about to fall!!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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gravystuffing, to be perfectly honest I think you've been taken in by some snake-oil salesman. What was the name of the instructor at that place? Was it Ian Beveridge?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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No not Ian but a Frenchman using Ian's methods. I've actually forgotten his name now but we got free lessons because I was running a chalet in Val and this guy's dad owned another chalet run by the same company. Have you ever had a go?
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| gravystuffing wrote: |
| Have you ever had a go? |
I've not been taught by Ian or that ski school, but I tend to be wary of self-styled mavericks. I think it's pretty arrogant for a person to think (and claim) that they are the only person who understands what skiing is about and how it should be taught and the vast majority of ski instructors, and all the national associations as I understand it, are wrong. The physics and biomechanics of skiing are the same for everybody, and I've worked with quite a large number of very well regarded instructors so feel I've had a wide enough range of opinions about teaching styles and strategies to find something that works for me. The only reason that I'm pushing you on this is because I'm very dubious about some of the advice that you gave to the new skier on the OP, and I wonder if this is a direct quote from the British American Ski School or your own interpretation of what they taught you.
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| Quote: |
I think it's pretty arrogant for a person to think (and claim) that they are the only person who understands what skiing is about and how it should be taught and the vast majority of ski instructors, and all the national associations as I understand it, are wrong. The physics and biomechanics of skiing are the same for everybody, and I've worked with quite a large number of very well regarded instructors so feel I've had a wide enough range of opinions about teaching styles and strategies to find something that works for me.
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Ditto.
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| TROY wrote: |
Hi to everyone, hope someone can help.
To keep it short, I have only just started to ski ( Im 49 going on 25) taking ski lessons at Castleford and ready and yearning to get onto a mountain to show off my new skills  Other members talk about 1,2, and 3 weeks experience on the slopes, I have a good 6 hours on the xscape slope!!!! ( Im sure that must confirm my Snowhead status.!) 
I have checked out this site and pistepals, in the hope of joining a group to go skiing with on the 26th/27th December 09, for a week, and again at the end of February 2010. (Europe only)
I dont know the ins and outs of red, blue and black runs, ( or any other colour if there are any?) and really need either a single skiier or a group of veterans to show me the ropes of what a ski holiday is all about. I am open to suggestions as to starting out on the pistes and would like to book for just after xmas first and see how I go before the February booking. |
Have a look at this group
http://www.snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=54987
should be perfect if you can make the dates
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Thread was to give Troy advice on the next steps not for a discussion on the relative merits of plough action ..
Troy - wht I would take from this is :
- Not all Ski Training is the same so chose skool / training carefully
My suggestion would be to avoid goin straight from the fridge to the slpes without some skoolin ... not only dangerous for you but dangerus for me too !!! plus there are the snow boarders.
Skools show you much more .. inc. deelin with changing conditions, ice, getting round the slopes / lifts plus you will be with people of your level
Paying a skoll may seem expensive but speed of progression & confidence built will be a big payback
Not sure what you have to do for lvel 5 but goin up and down the same patch in a fridge does not prepare you for the dangerous bits
Phyllis
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Phyllis Stein, welcome to snowHeads  You'll find that many, if not most, threads on snowHeads drift somewhat from their original topic. All part of the great tapestry of life.
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| Not sure what you have to do for lvel 5 but goin up and down the same patch in a fridge does not prepare you for the dangerous bits |
I disagree. If you use indoor slopes as a training facility, especially if you get some good instruction, the time you spend there will most certainly develop your ski technique to cope better with "the dangerous bits".
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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New to the board n don't want to cause a fuss but I am not saying that.
Is getting some training in a fridge better than nothing? -yes
Does ithelp build technique? - yes
Does it help you get started on the slopes quicker - yes
Is it better than getting training on a dry slope? - yes
My point is that it is a bit different (& dangerous) out there & confidence can be lost very quickly - learning on a 30m wide indoor slope id not enough to think that on day 1 of mountains you are prepared to get on the longest lift.
Just giving advice to Troy IMHO it is important to get some tuition as you will progress quicker & risk of injury to him / her (& me) is lower.
Do fridges vary conditions to allow training with ice .. whiteout .. etc
Phyllis
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Phyllis Stein wrote: |
| My point is that it is a bit different (& dangerous) out there & confidence can be lost very quickly - learning on a 30m wide indoor slope id not enough to think that on day 1 of mountains you are prepared to get on the longest lift. |
I agree.
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| Do fridges vary conditions to allow training with ice .. whiteout .. etc |
No, the indoor slopes are a controlled environment so conditions don't vary that much (although some are a bit icier than others). However, fundamental ski technique, which can be taught indoors, is useful in all skiing situations, including those that can't be replicated in the snowdomes.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| gravystuffing wrote: |
| Have you ever had a go? |
I've not been taught by Ian or that ski school, but I tend to be wary of self-styled mavericks. I think it's pretty arrogant for a person to think (and claim) that they are the only person who understands what skiing is about and how it should be taught and the vast majority of ski instructors, and all the national associations as I understand it, are wrong. The physics and biomechanics of skiing are the same for everybody, and I've worked with quite a large number of very well regarded instructors so feel I've had a wide enough range of opinions about teaching styles and strategies to find something that works for me. The only reason that I'm pushing you on this is because I'm very dubious about some of the advice that you gave to the new skier on the OP, and I wonder if this is a direct quote from the British American Ski School or your own interpretation of what they taught you. |
Sorry if this thread got highjacked. Happy to move discussion elsewhere if that is best.
If we go back to what Troy said near the top of the thread
| Quote: |
| And Gravystuffing my goodness that explains what the instructors at Castleford Xscape couldn't !!! cheers mate |
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That's fairly typical of what beginners and strugglers say to me if they ask me for help and I tell them what is needed. So you might think I'm a complete nut but there you have it. I only typed a few words on a forum and the bloke feels my explanation is better than his instructor's.
Learning to ski is IMHO very simple. It takes about 15 minutes to tell someone what they need to do to ski parallel from the off and a couple of hours practice. Oh how I wish someone had told me how to do it when I started then I wouldn't have wasted three or four years paying people to tell me to put myself in unnatural positions which have no scientific basis.
To see this in practice; to see how quickly you can lose the natural reflexes in your legs please just try walking in a snowplough or on the balls of your feet. It ain't easy is it? Just as with snowboarding you CAN learn to cope with this but it doesn't make for a quick, comfortable, natural learning experience IMHO.
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You know it makes sense.
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Troy - I hope things go well for you. I did not intend to use this thread to create a great debate about teaching methods. Please do whatever your instructors tell you to do but keep in mind what I've said and I'm sure you'll progress quickly through the ranks.
To progress quickly with parallel skiing it is vital to learn as quickly as possible what the North Americans call "the hockey stop". I call it the "skid stop". So get your instructors to teach you this if you can a.s.a.p. This gives you the confidence to stop quickly without the pain of slowing down using snowplough.
Enjoy
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| gravystuffing wrote: |
| To progress quickly with parallel skiing it is vital to learn as quickly as possible what the North Americans call "the hockey stop". I call it the "skid stop". So get your instructors to teach you this if you can a.s.a.p. This gives you the confidence to stop quickly without the pain of slowing down using snowplough. |
Better still, ask your instructor to give you the tools to make whatever turn shape you want as this is a much better way of controlling speed than a frantic heel push and pivot, followed by a scrabbling of edges in a desperate attempt to regain the control that you've lost.
The trouble with teaching the hockey stop from the outset is that the pivot that it introduces can too easily become the default steering method as people begin to depend on it for all their turns, leading to a huge challenge to change things later in their skiing career when the client realises that it's not a good way to make all of their turns.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| gravystuffing wrote: |
If we go back to what Troy said near the top of the thread
| Quote: |
| And Gravystuffing my goodness that explains what the instructors at Castleford Xscape couldn't !!! cheers mate |
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That's fairly typical of what beginners and strugglers say to me if they ask me for help and I tell them what is needed. So you might think I'm a complete nut but there you have it. I only typed a few words on a forum and the bloke feels my explanation is better than his instructor's. |
That's fine, everyone should make up their mind about what advice they want to listen to. The great thing about the internet is that there is a multitude of views. This bloke, for example, thinks your advice was, at best, motherhood and apple pie (stay relaxed) or at worst very unhelpful (don't bother to learn to snowplough, stay unbalanced, etc) 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Nice one rob@rar!
Perhaps a meet up in La Bolee in Arc 1950 would be in order. I'd like the crepe with the Roquefort sauce on and a Kir Breton, please
Best wishes
Gravy
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, Kel, I'm not convinced gravystuffing, is for real, given some of his comments here and on the speed on tails thread.
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beanie1,
you know thats what I thought, just after I pressed submit on the above post
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As with all things skiing they should of course be approach with responsibility in mind.
What is IMHO missing from most early tuition is understanding that the gradient of the hill and the shape of the terrain is what should be used to control speed. Understanding that skiing across the hill slows you down, skiing uphill slows you down more (until you start to ski backwards) is not a high priority for those who teach snowplough as a means of slowing. It is not really the snowplough that actually stops you it's the turn putting you across the mountain. Watch the blood wagon guys going down at breakneck speed in a snowplough.
If you are taught from the off that it is the angle of attack that controls your speed and you forget about getting into a contorted position then the sharp parallel skid turn (hockey stop) is the obvious stopping method. Here is the progression. Slow down by turning across or slightly uphill. Stop using a sharper turn. Take one turn at a time. Set off straight and then stop. Do it both sides. Within a very short time you're stopping either side, quickly and safely.
http://www.freerideskier.com/html/kill_the_snow_plough_.html
Anyone who hits the netting to stop needs help and quick!!!!!
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| gravystuffing wrote: |
As with all things skiing they should of course be approach with responsibility in mind.
What is IMHO missing from most early tuition is understanding that the gradient of the hill and the shape of the terrain is what should be used to control speed. Understanding that skiing across the hill slows you down, skiing uphill slows you down more (until you start to ski backwards) is not a high priority for those who teach snowplough as a means of slowing. It is not really the snowplough that actually stops you it's the turn putting you across the mountain. |
What do you think snowplough turns are used for? I teach snowplough turns as a way of controlling speed and line, emphasising that snowploughing in a straight line when you're trying to control speed (aka the deathplough) as not an effective way to ski.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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http://www.ski-jungle.com/articles/snowplough-turns.htm
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So is it time for the snowplough to go in the garbage can? No! The snowplough is still very useful on narrow paths, very busy pistes, and approaching lift queues, but it should be taught to adults at a later date.
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Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Sun 1-11-09 11:55; edited 1 time in total
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| gravystuffing wrote: |
| If you are taught from the off that it is the angle of attack that controls your speed and you forget about getting into a contorted position then the sharp parallel skid turn (hockey stop) is the obvious stopping method. Here is the progression. Slow down by turning across or slightly uphill. Stop using a sharper turn. Take one turn at a time. Set off straight and then stop. Do it both sides. Within a very short time you're stopping either side, quickly and safely. |
The only obvious thing about that is that almost all beginners will push their heels out in a big pivot as they do not have the skills to rotate the skis around their feet. If that becomes their standard way of turning (and believe me it will, I see it all the time) you are limiting the progress they will make with their skiing and doing your students a huge disservice.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| gravystuffing wrote: |
| http://www.ski-jungle.com/articles/snowplough-turns.htm |
The same idiotic website that you quoted before. Just because it's on the web doesn't mean that it has any validity 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
Watch the blood wagon guys going down at breakneck speed
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When have you ever seen them do that? Would you do it when you're carrying someone with a painful injury?
I think you're talking a lot of rubbish, frankly.
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Sorry Rob I edited my post above whilst you were posting. Check out the post above. Cheers Gravy
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You know it makes sense.
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gravystuffing,
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What is IMHO missing from most early tuition is understanding that the gradient of the hill and the shape of the terrain is what should be used to control speed.
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Now that is just complete and utter rubbish. Day one teaching someone to ski we (traditional instructors as you call us) choose terrain that will bring the skier to a natural stop. We do NOT teach skiers to use snowplough to stop, we teach a gliding snowplough, the next step is to teach them to use turn shape to control speed. The comments you make above just show your complete lack of understanding.
Unfortunately I think you've had some really bad instruction in the past, which has driven you to these really strange ideas.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| Quote: |
Watch the blood wagon guys going down at breakneck speed
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When have you ever seen them do that? Would you do it when you're carrying someone with a painful injury?
I think you're talking a lot of rubbish, frankly. |
They do it when they set off with no-one on board to get to the casualty quickly.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| gravystuffing wrote: |
| Sorry Rob I edited my post above whilst you were posting. Check out the post above. Cheers Gravy |
I have. It's a load of rubbish.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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gravystuffing,
Come on, come clean, you're not for real are you, you must be a wind up merchant surely
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Message to Troy -
Ignore Gravystuffing - he/she talks cobblers - get tuition with recognised skool
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| beanie1 wrote: |
gravystuffing,
| Quote: |
What is IMHO missing from most early tuition is understanding that the gradient of the hill and the shape of the terrain is what should be used to control speed.
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Now that is just complete and utter rubbish. Day one teaching someone to ski we (traditional instructors as you call us) choose terrain that will bring the skier to a natural stop. We do NOT teach skiers to use snowplough to stop, we teach a gliding snowplough, the next step is to teach them to use turn shape to control speed. The comments you make above just show your complete lack of understanding.
Unfortunately I think you've had some really bad instruction in the past, which has driven you to these really strange ideas. |
That may well be true and if you are teaching snowplough, very sensible.
When guests come back from their lessons I ask them, "OK, what did you learn today?". I've never once had the reply, "I learnt that it was the shape of the terrain that was slowing me down."
You may be different but how do you get feedback from your students to check that what you think you are teaching them is what they actually understand? You may very well be different but I'm afraid most of what I see is students being told what to do with no check to see if they understand why are doing it. Most students accept that the instructor is right and accept what they are told as a given whether they understand it or not.
Let's look at leaning forward and leaning backward. Most students come back knowing that they should be forward but when asked "why?" they rarely have any explanation. Leaning forward and putting weight down the hill is counter-intuitive. When you fall walking down a hill you fall backwards with a turn of the uphill shoulder. That is an evolutionary, in-built, hard-wired reflex. IMHO understanding why you should act counter-unintuitively helps. It really helps and this is where many instructors (and I'm not including you in this) go wrong.
I am not an instructor. I am acting as an advocate for beginners and early intermediates who by definition know no better and cannot therefore be their own advocates.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| gravystuffing wrote: |
| Let's look at leaning forward and leaning backward. Most students come back knowing that they should be forward but when asked "why?" they rarely have any explanation. Leaning forward and putting weight down the hill is counter intuitive. When you fall walking down a hill you fall backwards with a turn of the uphill shoulder. That is an evolutionary, in-built, hard-wired reflex. IMHO understanding why you should act counter-unintuitively helps. It really helps and this is where many instructors (and I'm not including you in this) go wrong. |
The majority of beginners don't need a massively complex treatise on the technicality of skiing. It just gets in the way of their learning and should be kept to a minimum. They learn by doing, and by increasing their control of line and speed. I wouldn't waste time explaining why they need to be in dynamic balance for/aft, left/right and rotationally, but those things are in my mind when I am trying to teach them a progression towards parallel skiing
| gravystuffing wrote: |
| I am not an instructor. I am acting as an advocate for beginners and early intermediates who by definition know no better and cannot therefore be their own advocates. |
I'd noticed you weren't an instructor I've also suspect you're doing a very poor job of offering advise to the people who you teach (illegally, and without liability insurance). Maybe I should advocate beginners steer clear of chalet staff who think they can teach and have an unorthodox, if I'm going to be generous, understanding of how to teach skiing.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sun 1-11-09 12:24; edited 2 times in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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OK....I'll stop now. You guys are obviously getting wound up by this.
Thanks for the debate.
Have a good season.
Gravy
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| gravystuffing wrote: |
OK....I'll stop now. You guys are obviously getting wound up by this.
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Not getting wound up at all. Simply trying to provide the best advice that I can. It will be up to the OP and other readers of this thread to make what they want of my contribution to this thread, in much the same way that they make what they want of your contribution.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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OK OK OK thanks for the advice,,,, and Its been fun reading all of your replies and discussions, arguments and theories, and I am sure that you are all decent skiiers with your own styles and beliefs. I didnt think that my measly first voyage into the forum would bring on such a torent of discussions. albeit I have thoroughly enjoyed reading the banter. ( maybe you should all start a new forum subject, under the heading 'To plough or not to plough, that is the question')
As for now, I am moving on from Snow ploughing into parrallel skiing, I have paid my money for the instructor and at this time will listen intently to what he has to say, and will follow like a lemming!!! To get to the end result. After all, if ploughing is right,,, or wrong , how am I to know? It made me laugh at Xscape when the instructor commented on the quality of the snow Four other students and I looked at each other and shrugged ( what is good snow, and what is bad??? we didnt,, and dont have a clue of the difference!!!)
I will learn the basic techniques from my instructors now, and once on the mountain, I will follow the resorts instructors advice again, ( you are never to old to learn new things) I realise that bad habits are hard to break, but at the moment, I can only follow what is being taught, I would not be allowed on the fridge slope if I couldn't control turns and ski to a reasonable standard, and I can't just say "Im not ploughing just teach me parrallel from the off"!!
Anyway, Thanks once again for the comments I reallly have been delighted with the banter and advice and Gravy ,, keep your chin up, everyone has an opinion who's to say which opinion is correct you obviously can communicate with less experienced skiiers and I take on board everything that you have said, Thankyou.
TROY
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FAQ
So after the 2nd lesson, Troy if He is so inclined will come flying down totally out of control, because You haven't taught him how to snowplough either. In the knowledge that he can stop albeit with the help on the safety netting. He walks away thinking He is Bode Miller with a very false sense of security 
Anyone who has ever skied in a fridge will have seen this and it never fails to amaze me that they are allowed to get away with it (CFe)
). Penny there is doing an excellent job with me so far.
