 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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There was another "high end operator" in trouble last season I got slapped by Admin by posting the company on this website. All I can say (without my post getting deleted) is one of the resorts they operate in is St Anton.
N.B They may of eventually paid there bills !!! I see there website is advertising for this season so presumably there sorted out now.
Its not TUI or TUI affiliates,Crystal,Inghams, Nielson.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 24-08-09 19:24; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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stanton, pm me the name please.
I am going with a large group in March,I,m sure I will be Ok but better safe than sorry.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Would also be interested in having the name pm'd please stanton, I'm heading there to work this Winter as a chalet host so wouldn't mind the heads up if it is the company I'm going with (unlikely I hope!)
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| stanton wrote: |
There was another "high end operator" in trouble last season I got slapped by Admin by posting the company on this website.
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And rightly so, since all you were posting was unsubstantiated insinuations.
And suggesting they were "in trouble" on the basis of them doing what many travel companies do routinely, namely paying their bills as late as they possibly can.
| Quote: |
All I can say (without my post getting deleted) is one of the resorts they operate in is St Anton.
N.B They may of eventually paid there bills !!! I see there website is advertising for this season so presumably there sorted out now.
Its not TUI or TUI affiliates,Crystal,Inghams, Nielson. |
Neither Inghams nor Neilson are in any way affiliated with TUI. Neilson are part of the Thomas Cook group, and Inghams are part of the Hotelplan group (Swiss based).
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I wonder how much the increasing number of people doing DIY holidays with budget flights and accommodation through holidaylettings etc. is hurting the tour operators.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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narc, As a retired member of staff of First Choice /TUI I know things are tough, but in my mind the big companies will survive as they alway do. It's the specialist "minnows!" that always catch a cold in my experience. In the ski world DIY will never replace the the big tour operators as there are always ski newbies out there who need the assurance of going with a big tour operator. Ski holidays are more complicated for the inexperienced to arrange rather than bog standard sun, sand and beach holidays. Time will tell no doubt 
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| And rightly so, since all you were posting was unsubstantiated insinuations. |
I know 100% that bills were very late & even not paid to various proprietors.
| alex_heney wrote: |
| Neither Inghams nor Neilson are in any way affiliated with TUI. Neilson are part of the Thomas Cook group, and Inghams are part of the Hotelplan group (Swiss based). |
I meant TUI affiliates to numerous to mention here (Not Neilson or Inghams)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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[quote="stanton"]
| alex_heney wrote: |
| And rightly so, since all you were posting was unsubstantiated insinuations. |
I know 100% that bills were very late & even not paid to various proprietors.
Whatever you know (or think you do),if you can't substantiate it, then it is potentially libel, and Admin cannot afford to have that on here, even if he wanted to.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| Whatever you know (or think you do),if you can't substantiate it, then it is potentially libel, and Admin cannot afford to have that on here, even if he wanted to. |
No worrys. Reminds me about something I knew but did not want to substantiate about a savings bank on a cold Island in the North Atlantic 
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You know it makes sense.
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I am sorry to disagree with the retired member of First Choice / Tui, but newbies do not need the assurance of a large tour op. I have travelled with both these companies, and not been impressed with either. Both times my holidays were changed, with First Choice the chalet was changed 3 times , and the arrival airport was also changed, as were flight times. We call them First Choice, last Choice No Choice.
The Rep on the ground was on both occasions more interested in selling pub crawl's , party nights out etc, than the real business of advising on skiing. I am also a " retired member" of the travel/tour ops industry, and can say that in the majority of cases the " minnows" offer a much better all round service, they are usually a specialist breed, and offer a specialist highly knowledgable service with superior staff, and generally accommodation of a higher quality. They are therefore unable to purchase rooms in bulk and have to pay more for all ground services. The Big tour ops on the other hand are able to bleed the accommodation provider dry, in order to provide ever decreasing prices. It costs less now for 1 week Skiing than it did when I was selling packages back in the early 70's. Quality has been compromised.
There are usually 3 middle men in between my product and my guests, all wanting an ever increasing bite of a smaller cherry. The giants often look to pay around 20€ per room per night bed and breakfast.
Smaller and Mid size operators will find they are hard hit , and that it is difficult to compete . They usually market to a ski savvy client, who would be well able to find and put all the ingredients together for a cheaper ski holiday of equal quality to the minnows , and of a higher quality than the giants.
The small business - private accommodation providers like myself are equally finding it tough. I and many of my collegues who run a small business in ski resorts, have become the victims of the sole apartment owner who, having purchased their dream apartment in a ski resort decide to rent it out " here and there " to cover costs. The only trouble is that the costs of a studio or 1 / 2 bed apartment is much smaller than my costs, which include hefty taxation, social Insurance, Public liability Insurance, licenses etc. I am finding it more difficult to compete with prices charged for the private apartments flooding inernet advertising sites. I have to hope that the " added value " our guests receive from us is worth the slightly higher costs. We and many other small providers I know offer a total service, we look after our guests newbies included, offering hospitality, advice on all aspects of the area, skiing, school, renting , help when needed , transfers if required, guiding, where to eat, get me a doctor, can you babysit etc etc. It is a far cry from arriving late on a Saturday night to a key under a doormat and no provisions for breakfast.However when there are tough economic times clients will increasingly choose the key under the doormat for what they believe will be the cheapest option. This is not often the case and certainly not the best of experience.
What needs to happen in an ideal world is
Clients need to realise that they should pay a realistic price for whatever product they choose to purchase. You get in this game what you pay for.
Tour Ops need to stop bleeding the guest provders dry with unrealistic and shamefull nightly costs, they need to pay better wages to reps, and reps need to provide a more proffesional service. The specialsit operators would be able to compete better, and offer their specialist knowledge and service to those wishing to purchase and pay for a superior product.
The sole apartment owner , should understand that they are undermining the livleyhoods of many small guest houses and apartment businesses. They are able to compete in an unfair way, offering cheaper and inferior holiday experiences, very often they operate outside the law, with no contractual responsibilites, and guests who are not properly registered do not receive the proper services or bonus offers to which they are often entitled to.
Everyone is struggling to compete in an overcrowded market place at the moment. Doubtless there will be some who fall by the way side, but until it is realised that it cant get much cheaper, we will continue to struggle.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Nads wrote: |
| .....The small business - private accommodation providers like myself are equally finding it tough..... I am finding it more difficult to compete with prices charged for the private apartments flooding inernet advertising sites. ..... |
Looks to me that a sensible business model is not possible for you, and that you should sell up - and do something else.
Interesting thought about liability insurance, though. I wonder how many of those pimping their apartments in sHs have it.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Nads, I do object to your assumptions that private apartment owners always offer inferior holiday experiences, and operate outside the law. Our apartment not registered with the tourist office, but there is no compulsion in France to do so, in my case it is because they haven't turned up to two appointments I have made with them to classify the apartment. I do pay tourist and income tax on the rent I receive, as well as all my local taxes. People arriving at my 'sole apartment' are met on arrival, and also offered ski school, discount on ski hire, and are given a contract on booking. Baybsitting, meal delivery and other services can be arranged too. There is definitely no key under the doormat scenario.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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achilles, no responsible apartment owner would be without it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Nads, anyone in business competes against bigger boys, who are not averse to throwing their weight around, and smaller boys who swarm around like gnats. There's absolutely no point whinging about it. Just promote your own virtues and find the customers for whom your particular proposition is suited.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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achilles, I have liability insurance.
Nads, sounds like you're telling the client what they want rather than the other way around.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
achilles, I have liability insurance.
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So do we.
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Nads, no-one said the big TOs are any good, just that they aren't likely to go t!ts up and leave you in the lurch any time soon.
The rest of your post sounds like a load of old rubbish, frankly. People letting private apartments aren't offering a 'holiday experience' at all. They are letting an apartment, full stop, generally to people happy to make their own experience.
If you are indeed providing "hospitality, advice on all aspects of the area, skiing, school, renting , help when needed , transfers if required, guiding, where to eat, get me a doctor, can you babysit etc etc.", you aren't aiming at the same market, are you? And if you find that your target market is running off into self catering in order to save money, perhaps you should look at diversifying into apartments instead/as well rather than just abusing people providing said service.
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| Nads wrote: |
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Everyone is struggling to compete in an overcrowded market place at the moment. Doubtless there will be some who fall by the way side, but until it is realised that it cant get much cheaper, we will continue to struggle.
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sorry to say but i have no sympathy for you. you come across as arrogant and blaming everyone else.
i run my own business and it's tough, but tough times provide oppertunities as well as problems.
From what you have written my feeling is that what you are decribing isn't enjoyable but akin to an old butlin holiday camp.. from the 70's
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hotting Up in here
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I would like to throw my lot in with Helen, Rob, genepi et al. I freely admit that my first skiing holidays were with the likes of Thompson but when I realised that the rate they were charging me, for a North facing appartment that no self respecting Frenchman would ever rent, was double the amount charged by the French company who owned it, I did the obvious, rang them up and in my pidgin french negotiated a deal (for a nice South facing one of course). I started renting the places that often because of my addiction to skiing that I bought one. When I don't need it I rent it out to other people (with all the proper insurance etc..) This provides work , and strangely enough, money for the people who clean the appartment, the ski hire shop that I reccommend etc. etc.
I am not sorry if this is undermining nads livelihood. The people who rent from me don't generally need anything more than a place to sleep between skiing, but if they want advice I give it. Upshot is, they are happy and get longer skiing holidays, and probably more importantly, so do I.
Just as a final sign off, if nads talks down to his guests in the same uninformed way that he criticises individual appartment owners then........
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Helen Beaumont, rob@rar, and genepi, reassuring replies. Thanks.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Nads, Just to jump on the band wagon it looks clear that either your business model is too overhead heavy or if you are truly at risk that your customers really aren't recognising your "added value". I don't presume to speak for all skiers but I imagine most people of moderate experience of European ski travel are capable of dealing with all the extras you provide themselves and don't need their bums wiped for them. So you probably need t target beginners and sell the difference between you & the big TOs.
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As a ski TO (owned by a larger non-ski TO which takes avg 25,000 to 30,000 people on tours p/y) can I add the following points.
The vast majority of skiers from the UK go on holiday with a TO, so the people on this forum, promoting self operated tours, do not represent the majority (I think  ) of UK skiers
"Most" (when looking at the statistics, that’s almost all) people do not want the hassle of organising a tour themselves. They want someone to do it for them. One of the most common discussions I have with new bookers when they make their 1st call revolves around that fact that they have been searching the web for ages/weeks/etc until they found our site ( yeah I know that means we should sort out our site's tags but that a different story) – I say this not as a bit of self publicity (we are almost fully booked for next year) but just to point out that even those opting to go with a TO will still take great care in choosing their holiday, so it’s not just the few that D-I-Y who look very carefully at the costs, transport, hotels, etc
Oh and don’t forget, if we (and any other bonded TO) go bust you get your money back from ATOL. Not going to go on about XL airways “but” those who booked through a TO’s got brought home for free (and 1st in most cases).
Apart from a sense of satisfaction (and of a “slightly” increased sense of control over your time and effort) there really is no reason, that will stand up to reasonable argument, for organising your own ski tour, except one – and this is why most people do it – because they want to. I fully agree with this reason. Do something coz you want to. Sounds good to me.
The truth is that “most” people organising their own trip could have done it much simpler via a TO and in many case for cheaper. Citing that you got your flights 50p Inc taxes is not a good reason to promote self operated tours as you will have got some of the very few seats available at that price and they will not be available to others.
As I said, most who operate their own tours because they want to. Fine, nothing wrong with that as long as they don’t treat the majority of skiers with a mixture of condescension and Gapper descriptions.
Due to the economies of scale we (and most TO's) can operate holidays for a cheaper cost than you could do it yourself. Plus we have the resources available to sort things out if/when they go wrong?
Oh and on the point of the ski holidays being cheaper now than in the 70's (in real terms) well so are most things that have increased in use since then. Computers, Flights, Cars, Microwaves, Space Travel, Big Macs, loaf of bread, etc, etc so that just a daft argument. Sorry Nads
So, can we stop the TO bashing. Whatever you think of us, we “are” the ski industry in the UK,
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You know it makes sense.
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Wayne,
| Quote: |
| The truth is that “most” people organising their own trip could have done it much simpler via a TO and in many case for cheaper. |
This is true.
I think 'most' people on this site do enjoy the unbridled adventure of booking a budget airline ticket and confirming an hotel or chalet by email. Good to see that that great pioneering spirit isn't dead. The bravery and ingenuity of these people who do DIY trips never ceases to amaze me. They must save themselves pounds at the end of the day.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Wayne, all very true. The smug DIYers on here are far from representative.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Wayne wrote: |
| As I said, most who operate their own tours because they want to. |
Sometimes it's because the 'package' we want doesn't seem to fit with the 7 day TO's offerings. If i look at my last 3 holidays then only one of those was a classic 7 day trip - the remainder were 5 day and 2 night. Are there any TO's (other than mountainsun) catering to this 2/3 day break need - can it be made cost-effectively with the transport and changeover logistics.
| Wayne wrote: |
Plus we have the resources available to sort things out if/when they go wrong?
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Some pimple spotted youth who doesn't know his back bottom from his elbow. Based on the majority of the peeps I met on my season I can't see that many of them would have been much use in a crisis.
I'm sure this is now going over old ground - at the end of the day the market is big enough for everyone and whilst undoubtedly some skiers will go with TO's (usuually on value led deals) others will choose to DIY and do their own thing. For those people that book the majority of their holidays DIY then there's no difference between booking a villa in greece to a chalet in chatel - for the sheep that want the security of bonding etc, then book with the TO. Once you're past the 1st ski holiday then the 'problem factor' of buying lift passes, kit hire and lessons doesn't seem so difficult to DIY.
Those TO's that continue to deliver what customers want will succeed, those that don't will go titsup.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Wayne, I agree with all you say, and I'm certainly not TO bashing, whether they be small or large. There's room in the holiday market for all sorts of solutions to all sorts of different requirements.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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O.E.D.
Like I have said before: Of course I could bake my own bread and I may even save a few pence in doing so. I may convince myself (and anyone else that will listen ) that my bread is far superior as it's baked just the way I like it. I could also take pleasure in knowing that it's all my own work. I may even feel that supermarkets are ripping us off by making a profit on each slice; how dare they - OK I understand that they have to pay rates, tax, wages, rent, blah blah blah but I want each slice that I eat to have cost no more than the constituent parts - and no I am not paying for the gas they use to run the oven or, on that point, for the oven in the 1st place. grrrrrrrr.
I want my bread to by mine. aaaarrrrgggghhhh. Can’t people see that you should always cook your own bread, what’s wrong with them. Sheep the lot of em queuing up and paying those prices.
etc etc etc etc
Nahhh, sod that, I'm off to Tesco’s, much simpler.
Lets keep stuff in perspective ???
An example of misrepresentation by omission. OK it grammatically true but still misleading. Some skiers / Other will etc etc does not paint a true picture.
| bertie bassett wrote: |
| whilst undoubtedly some skiers will go with TO's others will choose to DIY |
It could have read
| bertie bassett wrote: |
whilst undoubtedly the vast majority of skiers will go with TO's, a few others will choose to DIY
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Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Sun 30-08-09 12:49; edited 3 times in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Wayne, it does have the advantage that you get to eat bread rather than that weird polystyrene pap. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Baking bread is not difficult. You can bake it late at night if it suits you. But shop bought bread has the advantage of saving you a little time and aggravation, might cost less depending on what you want. Slicing and wrapping might appeal.
Make it if you want to, buy it if you want to. There's enough of us wanting different types of bread to keep everyone happy.
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Wayne,
| Quote: |
As a ski TO (owned by a larger non-ski TO which takes avg 25,000 to 30,000 people on tours p/y) can I add the following points.
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I'm interested, what TO and which TO owned by? We then may able to assess your position in this discussion and make our own assessment.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| BMF_Skier wrote: |
| We then may able to assess your position in this discussion and make our own assessment. |
You don't need to assess anything - I am quite upfront about working for a TO (part time).
My position is to defend TO's - thought that was clear, sorry if not.
Anyway as you asked (not a self plug)
The Folgarida Ski Co is (as linked to on the bottom of "every" page on the website http://www.folgarida.co.uk/ ) is the ski arm of UKOP trekking http://www.ukoutdoorpursuits.co.uk/trek_dossier/index.htm (non-ski treks) this is owned by UK Outdoor Pursuits http://www.ukoutdoorpursuits.co.uk/
(this year - just checked - 26,380 bookings). Most of their trips are trade-trade (other companies’ book UKOP to run the actual trips).
They also run the TakeUpTheChallenge website http://www.takeupthechallenge.com (which has 143 subsites each operating the adventurous fund raising events for national charities)
Hope this helps you "assess my position in this discussion"
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Getting to the other main point of the OP.
I remember the company that was mentioned as not paying it's bills (not the one that went bust but the other one ?).
Don't know how they are doing but (on a recent visit to tignes) I have seen their minibus' whizzing around with clients in so they must be still paying the bills or they wouldn't be doing that.
Not going to put their name as that wouldn't be fair as it may start a rumour which is why I think Mr Admin pulled it in the 1st place
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FAQ
in the industry to air their views on the plight of the smaller/mediumsized operators.
. Apart from anything else, it suits our purse.
