 Poster: A snowHead
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As I understand it ISIA have implemented a timed GS as part of the criteria for receiving the top level ISIA card, called the ISIA test. I dont really want to get into the semantics of whether it is fairer/easier than the eurotest, but I would like to know how to register to enter these races, and what BASI are doing to help it members in this area.
I think this test could be beneficial to its members for a number of reasons.
It is somewhere in the ISIA regulations that the cost of entering be a maximum of 30 euros, and can also be run in countries like switzerland and the UK, places where a large number of BASI instructors work. It will be far cheaper for most people to do than the eurotest, especially with the new pricing BASI are introducing, and also will give people real-life competition practice before entering the eurotest. I understand that it is not accepted by the eurogroup, but that isnt my concern (It will become a part of the swiss patent qualification, and the ISIA card is good for a lot of other countries).
Beanie1, do you have any info about how to register for the ISIA tests that run in switzerland and will BASI be running them any time soon?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Try Pete Silver-Gillespie at HH he has just come back from ISIA conference in Budapest or almost back.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Well if you need training, wink, wink 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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skifluff,
I know the test has been run previously in Germany, on the same course as the Eurotest. I will try and find a link to the German federation for your info.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Thing is, the isnt a new test, they ran a test race in 08, and they ran at least 5 last year in switzerland, i remember seeing them advertised on the swiss snowsports website, but no mention by BASI of how its members can register to enter, or even a mention of the test itself. This should be rectified as BASI say they are committed to the ISIA organisation and the training pyramid they helped design, of which the ISIA test is a component. I know that the eurotest has been deemed as acceptable by ISIA for the ISIA card, but BASI members should be given the choice of doing the ISIA test, if only because it is cheaper, and run in more convient locations for so many BASI instructors.
dont think pete will be much help, hoping beanie1 would be able to get an answer.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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skifluff, Good point and an excellent question. I too would be very keen to see a resolution to this. I wait (with baited breath)... for a BASI response
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skifluff, thanks for the question. I shall take it to the office and get back to you.
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Hi All. The ISIA test has been around for a few years and has ran is some of the eastern european nations (poland) and Switzerland. It is ran to a different calibration that the Eurotest, probably more achievable by a greater number of "ski instructors" although still not a breeze. I don't know the exact requirements but will see what I can dig out.
As I reported BASI and IASI already exceed the ISIA stamp and card requirements with the off piste courses they run. BASI already issue the card and stamp, IASI issue the stamp and are seeking an inspection to offer the card also.
The card has credibility with the Swiss and the Germans who are right behind it. Maybe instructors at the top level could have a choice whether they take the euro test ( giving them equivalence and the ISIA card) or do the ISIA test (giving them just the card) depending on where they intend to work?
All this needs an employer (Ski School) to let us know what they require and will recognise.
PSG
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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thanks pete for the information, but I still dont understand how I can register to enter the ISIA test races. Or is it that presently BASI members cannot enter?
If so, then this is not right. I want to be able to be given the option because the ISIA test is cheaper and run in more convient locations than the eurotest (for me and a large number of not-ISTD members who work in switzerland).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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skifluff, I put your question to the office the other day and am waiting for the answer. Apologies for the delay - lots of people at the ski show this week.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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thanks beanie1, much appreciated.
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I would have thought that this will come down to whether the French recognize the ISIA test....
Which leads me to the 1 thing I can't quite work out.
How is it that I am trained, qualified and work as a Ski Instructor here in the UK and yet I am am not free to conduct my work in throughout Europe when EU Legislation says that I should be able to ?
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| Any EU national who is legally established in a Member State may provide services on a temporary and occasional basis in another Member State under his/her original professional title without having to apply for recognition of his/her qualifications. |
http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/education_training_youth/vocational_training/c11065_en.htm
How can that be ? 
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You know it makes sense.
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AndAnotherThing.., The french have a derogation from the EU relating to the training of ski instructor amongst other professions that allows them special dispensation from those rules.
Without wanting to sound rude, we should keep this thread on topic. It isnt really relevant whether the french recognise this test or not (they do not as it stands). This is not an issue about france or the perceived fairness of the eurotest or recognition of qualifications.
It is about how BASI instructors can register for the ISIA test.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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skifluff, Not just France, but apologies for thread drift.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| AndAnotherThing.. wrote: |
How is it that I am trained, qualified and work as a Ski Instructor here in the UK and yet I am am not free to conduct my work in throughout Europe when EU Legislation says that I should be able to ? |
You can, if you meet the minimum standard the French have for ski instructors - L4 ISTD.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skifluff, I am guessing you are on the BASI pathway, what would you need to get the Patente in addition to the ISIA test? is it all the ISTD modules bar the ET? Are you hoping to get equivalence in the Swiss system? If not I dont see how the ISIA test will get you anything unless BASI offers an ISIA "card" after passing the all ISTD modules and substituting the ISIA test for the ET... At the moment as i understand it all BASI ISTD's will be granted the "card"
gilleski, Be interesting to hear if the Irish will use the ISIA test, the ET or either for their "Card" any update on the IASI L4 requirements?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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skifluff, I am guessing you are on the BASI pathway, what would you need to get the Patente in addition to the ISIA test? is it all the ISTD modules bar the ET? Are you hoping to get equivalence in the Swiss system? If not I dont see how the ISIA test will get you anything unless BASI offers an ISIA "card" after passing the all ISTD modules and substituting the ISIA test for the ET... At the moment as i understand it all BASI ISTD's will be granted the "card"
gilleski, Be interesting to hear if the Irish will use the ISIA test, the ET or either for their "Card" any update on the IASI L4 requirements?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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skimottaret, I spoke to ISIA today who told me that ISIA tests will be posted in the future in the ISIA website. ISIA tests are organised by ISIA member organisations in line with the rules.
BASI level 4 exceeds the requirement for the ISIA card so currently these are issued automatically to BASI level 4 instructors.
IASI currently don't issue the ISIA card ( but do issue the stamp). IASI are currently going through the process of being verified to issue the card (hopefully this will happen very soon).
Other nations leave the exit to Euro Pro or ISIA card pro open to the instructor based on where they want to work. For example you do all the top qualification modules, then decide if yo want to take Euro test or ISIA test. This could be an option for IASI?
What we really need is for an employer / National organisation to tell us what they want? This is clear in France, its the Eurotest. If the Swiss decided the card was what they recognised then there would be a lot of interest in getting the card from instructors wanting to work there.
Its clear that the Austrians and French don't give it much credibility and still insist on the Eurotest.
Will keep you posted
PSG
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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gilleski, cheers , If the ISIA go with the ISIA test (thats a mouthful) I might jump ship
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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skimottaret, I think ideally IASI will look at the possibility of offering either outcome based on instructors working preferences.
Its important that we offer a pathway to working in France, at the same time as offering members a pathway to employment as professionals in other nations.
PSG
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gilleski, sounds very sensible, will the EMS be part of the IASI Card pathway ?
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skimottaret, This is obviously concept at this point. However, we would be keen to keep a level 2 off piste course in our level 4 as its important to have this level of education and competence at this level. The main difference would be a choice based on instructors working needs as to whether they take the Euro test, or ISIA test.
PSG
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hi skimottaret, as i understand the swiss will allow you to sit a patent conversion course if you hold the ISIA card (also to people who do not, seemingly randomly). I would like to settle in switzerland and naturally would like to achieve the patent in the least expensive and disruptive way. I think that competing in the ISIA test will allow this. I am 100% certain that I have seen mentioned in a BASI publication that if you hold the L4 modules bar the eurotest, and pass the ISIA test then you will receive the ISIA card. I just want to know how to enter. And if I cant, what has changed?
gilleski, I very much hope that BASI will follow IASI in at least making moves to allows their instructors to make a choice based on where thery want to work. It would be wrong (and hypocritical) for BASI to place such unneccessary obstacles in the career path of their members.
beanie1, is ther any news from the BASI office now the ski shows are done?
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skifluff, I've made the aware of this conversation and am waiting for a statement.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I am somewhat confused:
Currently BASI award ISIA staus at BASI L3 once all the courses etc have been completed.
So far that has not required this ISIA GS "speed" test.
So:
Is this GS Test a new thing that must be passed in order to get ISIA qualification?
Or does it confer some kind of ISIA+ qualification?
Or is it not required at all if you have followed the BASI pathway to ISIA?
Or something else?
I ask on behalf of my son who is half way through the BASI L3 pathway.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rungsp, no the BASI L3 doesnt require any type of speed test, once you pass all modules you get the ISIA "stamp".. the ISIA test is for top certificates in the ISIA pyramid which is the "card". At the moment the BASI L4 ISTD (including Eurotest pass) gets you an ISIA "Card"
what people are interested to know is if you pass all your L4 modules bar the ET and then take the ISIA speed test will you be granted an ISIA Card. this card is of value in places like Switzerland NZ Japan etc...
The ISIA test is slightly easier, cheaper and fairer than the ET and run outside of the EU
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In what way "fairer" skimottaret?
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You know it makes sense.
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skifluff, beanie1, had mentioned a few years ago that passing all L4 modules and the ISIA test will get you a card , you would need the ET to get an ISTD
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=50772&start=40#1528958
FlyingStantoni, have a look at the beginning of the above thread but in summary "fairer" as it takes an average of the two openers opening and closing times. a ET could have 4 openers and they only used the fastest time when setting the pass time... It has been reported that they are going to average the two fastest times this coming season after lots of criticism about skewed results and openers being told to slow down in the second race...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
It has been reported that they are going to average the two fastest times this coming season after lots of criticism about skewed results and openers being told to slow down in the second race...
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skimottaret, FlyingStantoni, remember the only time a second run time is aimed for actually makes the test fairer be ensuring a consistent level. Having 2 openers increases the variables and therefore makes it harder to ensure "quality control".
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Poster: A snowHead
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Also depends hugely where the openers get their 50 points from...cit races or races in sud tirol (there can be big differences from one 50 point skier to the next). When they did an isia test alongside a eurotest I opened using my calibration/had 50 points I am 99 percent sure the isia time was harder.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
Having 2 openers increases the variables and therefore makes it harder to ensure "quality control".
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not sure i agree with that. if you have say 4 openers and one has a great run the pass time be too hard. Surely taking the average of ALL openers times after applying their coefficients would be the most consistent method.. that was the main issue the ISIA had with the ET was consistency. here is a report on their findings (starts page 4 ) http://www.isiaski.org/download/dv_jesolo_en.pdf
jjc, I dont disagree with you that there can be variations in FIS races but i would think the reason the ISIA uses FIS points is due to the fact that they run tests globally and trying to have an annual race to get a set of openers calibrated wouldn't be practical. You could argue that the calibration you guys do isnt perfect either. (Ross G was a good example of that, calibrated when injured and then laying down better times when fit)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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skimottaret, Calibration is not perfect but i think it provides the most consistent results and there is not a fairer solution. I have been to a lot of tests over three years and mostly all the openers times after being calibrated are extremely close ( few tenths of a second) That is because at calibration we have four runs and run in all kind of different bib orders.
If Ross G had an injury and was knowingly skiing faster at a test then he did a bad job (I am sure he didnt do it intentionaly), they make it pretty clear to us at every test we are meant to be skiing to our calibration and not racing. From what I heard they re calibrated him from that event so it would not happen again.
The ISIA test pass time could be anything there is no guarantee it is 12% off ‘50 point skiers’. Just look at racers profiles one day they score 60 the next they score 50, some days a 50 point skier scores a 30 after having made a break through or the variables working for them. Some times a 70 point skier scores a 50 because the fog rolls in for the top skiers and rolls out for the later numbers. Can they only score 50 on a clean course at lower level races with a reasonably bib or are they racing in sud tirol with bib 110? Did they score 50 in a give away race? I scored my 50 from 60's after having not been near a gs gate in over a year because i was in Australia and not Europe where it is always easier, i could have scored 30/40 if i had not bottled second run etc etc etc. I then trained GS all summer and improved a lot, but i still had 50 points because i didn’t do another GS race would it be fair for me to open as a "50 point skier"? Are they ensuring they have 50 points so they have a job? The list is endless. When they ran the isia test alongside the eurotest after my summer of training I beat the German 50 point skier by a lot more than a few tenths. James, Jas and I were all '50 point' skiers and had fairly different calibrations. Our calibrated times are always very similar our actual times are not.
In my view the each ISIA test standard will vary a lot more than the eurotest and wrong to suggest it is fairer. It is still a test with a benefit at the end so i think it is best to go out there and make sure you pass it and not worry about how they do the maths of either test.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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right, so we don't end up repeating the whole of the other eurotest thread. Here's a few points:
1. We see the results at all the ET's we go to.
2. They tested the new average of the two fastest using times we set.
3. Made it more complicated, and now 2 people have the potential to knock the test level either way not 1.
4. Difference in pass time less than 0.10 sec
5. In the last 3 years the ET has been very consistent.
6. Most of the reasons people moan about it are from 4+ years ago. (ross g)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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skimottaret, yep they are.
I think most of the time it will be ok, just when the courses deteriorate or snow conditions suck the test may suffer.
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beanie1, so are we to take it that the ISIA test has zero relevance to anyone within the BASI system?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimottaret, the situation is fluid, with the discussions about a common test taking place in Europe at the moment.
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thank you beanie1, I understand you are just passing on information and I do appreciate that, please can you get back to BASI on my behalf as the statement has not actually answered my original question,I know BASI have said they wont run 2 types of test coz it will be too expensive, I dont really care if BASI run a test or not or arent represented at the test.
to quote BASI "If there was a calendar of ISIA Tests published by ISIA we would be happy to inform members of the dates and they would then be able to attend the Tests which suited them."
well here are some dates: Davos 28/03/12, St Moritz 03/04/12, Zermatt 02/05/12
So, back to my original question: "How do I enter ?", where are forms on the BASI website? or are they not involved in submitting entries at all?
hopefully it wont take them 20 days to reply again.
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FAQ
perhaps "fairer" wasnt the best choice of words and i agree that FIS points can all over the place. You have convinced me the calibration process is pretty darn good. But, the isia test is useful for those associations thar are outside of the handful of Euro zone countries that run ET's.
