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Whom do you tell when you go off-piste?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
It is regularly said that when going far off-piste without a guide (particularly alone or with only one or two others) you should tell someone where you are going. Then if you don't come back someone knows, and knows where rescuers should look.

Do you? I know I very seldom do. And if you do, whom do you tell?

The last time I went on my own quite far off-piste (which I almost never do) I did tell the lift operator at the base of the access lift. When I got back to the bottom I went to tell him I was back but he had gone off-duty and not told anyone about me.


Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 15-07-09 12:17; edited 1 time in total
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
snowball, Normally sombody I am on holiday with that I know will not be off piste and who I would expect to see at Dinner so if I am not there they know to raise an alarm
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Ordhan, yes, much better than nothing, but it might be a bit late for a rescue that day.

Personally I am seldom on holiday with a group larger than just the people I am skiing with. We ski almost entirely off-piste and often decide to do something when we are already on the mountains, or on the basis of "What shall we do next?
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snowball, good point and something that is nto always enacted.

If we are such small numbers, ie 3 peeps, then the others know where we are headed and it is also a reason to carry those almost naff radios..
If we are a larger group then we figure we can 'handle' things to a degree but I am sure there have been occasionjs when we could have done these things better.

I know accidents can happen anywhere but it is a good idea to have check-in points for the days skiing, especially if you don't expect to come across too many others on the route..


Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Wed 15-07-09 12:27; edited 1 time in total
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Isn't going off-piste without a guide rather risky? Never been off-piste myself but I was always led to believe it was a group activity with a guide.
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queen bodecia, Depends on where you are and what you are doing. Glaciers Guide is essential if you have good slope awarness Avalanche training and are reasonably close to civilisation a guide is not always nesecarry.

snowball, Agreed, worst case scenario you could tell the hotel that if you have not come back to them by x time they should raise an alarm with Piste Patrol.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
queen bodecia, we are all very experienced off-piste skiers but wouldn't ski, without a guide, many of the things we might ski with one. Although I and some others have done snowcraft courses, we all know our snowcraft is not anything like as good as that of a guide - so we tend to play safe (in our own terms) when unsure about snow stability. My own holidays are typically 2 or 3 days without a guide and 5 or 6 days with one.


Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 15-07-09 12:47; edited 1 time in total
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
queen bodecia, what the others say. on the rare occasions I ski off piste on my own, I am more concerned about falling and hurting myself and not being able to get help than avalanches. (I wouldn't contemplate skiing alone unless the avalanche risk is very low)
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Arno, yes, same here.

Does anyone on here ever tell resort staff (pisteurs, guide office, lift staff etc) - and if so whom?


Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Wed 15-07-09 12:53; edited 2 times in total
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Thanks for the info. Being a boring piste bimbler I never knew any of this. I expect in this day and age of mobile phones these sorts of things are far less risky.
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queen bodecia, yes, mobile phones are a big help, but even if someone from the group is OK to phone I sometimes find I cannot get reception (eg Nevis in Scotland last time) or one time my battery was too flat.

Although there is a general emergency number (not the same in all countries) it is worth knowing the local one (sometimes it is on the piste map) and putting both in your phone at the start of the holiday.

Once I was off piste with a guide at St Foy when someone did a knee ligament. It turned out the relay station for the guide's radio (on top of Les Arcs "Aiguille Rouge") had a flat battery or was out of order and he had to ski a mile down the valley to get a signal, leaving me to prepare the landing zone for the helicopter and signal it in (standing right in front of where it landed - quite exciting).


Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Wed 15-07-09 14:18; edited 1 time in total
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
queen bodecia, nope... you just need to be able to think you can handle your exposure... so that takes a bit of experience, confidence and sense.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I don't tend to tell anyone where we've gone. I probably need to change this. The pisteurs on the whole don't tend to give a monkey's unless you are about to do anything obviously stupid or they think you are clueless.

queen bodecia, without wanting to go into the risks a guide can and cannot help you control there are times when a guide will make you safer and times when they will not. There are also times when they will give you the appearance of safety without actually providing it.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
gorilla,
Quote:

There are also times when they will give you the appearance of safety without actually providing it.
That's the bit that's always worried me.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Hurtle, I don't think it fair or reasonable to assume that one guy is infallible..so all parties should be watching, aware, taking note...AND learning..
Of course you are hiring his experience and knowledge and craft but everyone has a vested interest so you can ask and probe, IMO..

If yuu don't know, then you are beholden to the guide/group leader but then try and get the impression that they realise that they will have ALL the hard work to do should it come to that. That in itself should be a limter on what the group does.

Personally, I don't like the oblivous sheep idea, so on every trip, people should be asking pertinent questions to add to their own experience.

This is indeed why most people like to match up their skiing companions when doing something a bit outside the norm.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
snowball wrote:


Although there is a general emergency number (not the same in all countries)


It is the same (112) throughout Europe (including non-EU countries).

112 is also available as an alternative in the majority of countries you are likely to be skiing in (including USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand). The main (skiing) ones it won't work in are Japan, Argentina, Chile.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
alex_heney wrote:



112 is also available as an alternative in the majority of countries you are likely to be skiing in (including USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand). The main (skiing) ones it won't work in are Japan, Argentina, Chile.
I didn't know that.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I think sometimes it would be wise to tell piste patrol of your intentions. Last winter myself and Swirly skied a route called Mines that drops off bellow signal. There have been cases of people heading down not knowing where to go and getting into trouble. Whilst half way down, a helicopter appeared above us and waited till we made it out the bottom of the couloir. I'm fairly sure a liftie or patroller must of seen us and called the helicopter. If I were to do it again I would certainly tell the pisteurs. However, that is not a normal situation and normally I wouldn't tell anyone other than friends if possible.
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scottishskier, fair point. I'd forgotten about that one. Just out of interest how would you have reacted if he had said "don't go there" or "putain t'es fou" as may have been more likely?

BTW check your hotmail, I think I've solved the flat problem.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Although I ski off piste mainly with guides there are still some days when I go off piste with friends.

I think the most I have ever done is let other people in the larger group on a holiday know that we were going off piste however I would not expect that to save my life. As most of us know if an accident does happen we have something like fifteen minutes usually for a rescue to be carried out. So telling the hotel for example that you are going off piste is highly unlikely to help a great deal unless a situation occurs where you are lost on the mountain, which is a highly unlikely possibility for me anyway as I would never venture too far from the piste without a guide.

The other factor is that when I go off piste with friends I prefer to play it by ear when looking for good conditions. I have for example had days where we started by skiing off piste in Val d'Isere then ended by going over to Tignes.

I think it all comes down once again to recognising that when you go off piste, the primary chance of rescue is from members of your own group, so letting anyone else know will be of minimal help.
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The golden rule of back country or off piste skiing is Never ski alone Skullie
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
stanton, too right and always fully equipped & more importantly trained
snowHead
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
I prefer to wait until after I've skied off piste and then post pictures of it. The more people you tell before the more competition you have for the lines...

(Different for me as I have friends, staff etc that would miss me after a few hours / days / weeks).
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Doing it is better than nothing but all group members having a mobile phone (assuming there is reception) + GPS is the best way. This way when you call you can give them an exact fix of your position and they can find you more easily than randomly searching an area where you have not been seen late in the evening. There are now reasonable size sat phones becoming available which will be good for this.
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stanton, there are plenty who would argue with your view.

http://www.backcountryworld.com/showthread.php?t=3041
http://www.telemarktalk.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=10071

IMHO, provided one is aware of the dangers - and behaves accordingly - then there is no problem. I've skied alone from the top of Kebnekaise (highest point in Sweden) back to the hut and the rest of my party. It was an exhilarating and beautiful experience but I was really careful to keep away from any danger. On paper that may sound bold but, in practice, the terrain is far gentler than one would experience in or around a resort. And the rest of my party knew pretty much exactly where I was going.

As for whom to tell in a resort - well, obviously there is no point in telling someone who is not bothered if you don't return! Piste Security seems the best option but they are not always in the right place. They should also know the conditions and can advise accordingly. I've never bothered myself but I would usually make sure that someone in the chalet knew roughly where we were headed for the day.

If a chopper lurks overhead then you can call for assistance by raising both arms so as to form a Y. To say all is okay raise one and drop the other to form an N. Like this:

Yes, I need help.

No, I don't need help.

From:
http://www.vysoketatry.org/rescue/requests.html
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
I have a season bag check at my hill and sometimes I tell them where I'm going usually when I'm out skiing alone. I used to just tell my friends if I don't show up I'm dead but the OH doesn't approve of this approach so now she knows or bag check will and they will notice my bag is still there at the end of the day.

Have to agree with parlor every time take people out I end up with more competition and have to find more places to go.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
When I have being skiing off-piste without a guide/instructor it has mostly been fairly local to the lift system - and often based on an assessment of what looks suitable as we have gone up the lifts. We've never told anyone where we were going. When hill walking - including some quite adventurous solo scrambling, I have rarely told anyone what I have been up to. We used to be advised to leave a route card in plain view inside a car windscreen - but of course what you were then doing was advise car thieves how long they had to break into our cars. Taking out formal parties was another matter , and advice on routes to be taken was left.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
This post is utterly ridiculous!

If you have been swept up in an avalanche then you are more likely than not dead and buried. If you have fallen and are injured then use a mobile and gps. If you are hoping that by telling someone it will in anyway help you then you are sorely mistaken. A standard return from skiing can be as late as 5pm and if the day has been successful then a beer or two at this point is more than common. When exactly would the person you told think to call in mountain rescue and when would they feel it is worth while to mount a search. I feel the earliest would be 8pm which by this time finding a human on the mountain would be near impossible as even with IR search (if this exists) body temp would be very very low.

snowball, Why go off piste alone? Also I made the mistake once in St Anton to ask a lift operator whether it was safe to cut across off piste between two pistes in heavy snow. (I was with a friend) - He said yes fine and we started only to turn back which was lucky as there may have been a chance of skiing of a mountain. When we spoke with our of piste guide the next day he told us that the majority of lift operators in Austria and ST Anton in particular are temporary workers who have no skiing experience. This may be resort dependent but I am not surprised to hear that the lift operator you told didn't actually give a poo-poo!
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
plectrum wrote:
This post is utterly ridiculous!

If you have been swept up in an avalanche.....



snowball has indeed been caught up in an avalanche. Do tell us of your similar experiences. I've skied with snowball - he's way better than I, and it was an honour to keep him company for an hour or two. Ridiculous he is not.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Thanks, achilles.

I have regularly read that one should inform someone before going off piste without a guide (not just if alone) as to where one is going. I have also seen people who got into trouble and had not told anyone being described as irresponsible. I almost never tell anyone where we are going and wondered if others do and if I was being irresponsible. It seems from the response that I am typical.

However I do, occasionally, ask for advice about snow conditions: in general and on particular routes. Pisteurs and guides etc are usually happy to talk (if you can find them - eg at Nevis in Scotland there is a pisteurs' hut at the top of the summit lift) but don't just ask "is it safe to go on such and such a route". The responsibility of deciding that the risks are small enough to be worth it are ultimately yours.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
telling someone where you are going is pretty standard advice for all activities where you are getting off the beaten track. i expect this dates back to the days before mobile phones and GPS but you can still find yourself in places where phones do not work without trying too hard and GPS isn't infallible either. neither will do you much good if you fall into a crevasse! in that situation, i would far rather someone at least knew i was (say) skiing the Vallee Blanche that day than having no idea where to start looking
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
plectrum, You don't die instantly if you are lost outside the pistes:

Take this joker if he'd even left the slightest notice with patrol or the lift hut that he and his wife were heading out of bounds over the back she would probably be alive (assuming there was no foul play which has been alleged at times):

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2009/02/26/rescue.html.

I know from experience that mobile phone coverage can be patchy in mountains - perhaps the answer is a SPOT beacon.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
It's a tricky one. It's all well & good saying it's irresponsible to ski off piste alone & that you should always tell the pisteur/your group/etc. where you are going but real life doesn't work like that.

Unfortunately most of the people i usually go on my skiing holidays with aren't even remotely close to be sufficiently good enough to competently ski off piste. Let alone to be taken down serious off piste lines. This frequently leaves me in the position where i'm skiing on my own. To be honest this no longer bothers me as i have the experience & where with all to decide what i'm able to get down, what's safe & how to get out of the poo-poo. I will generally say go off on my own for the morning & ski the bigger lines i want to ski then meet back up with the group for lunch & then cruise pistes with the group for the afternoon. If i plan on doing something big i'll tell someone what my intentions are. However this is only at best ever indicative because when in a big european resort like say les arcs or tignes with an interconnected lift system you can cover an awful lot of ground in a half a day. This is especially so when on your own as you're not waiting on anyone & it's much easier to poach lift queues as a 1 Very Happy In reallity what this means is i could tell my friends/the lifty/the chalet host i'm going to be over skiing x but if something did actually happen to me it could literally be several miles away. As in the space of a morning i could easily have skied a dozen plus runs.

Now some people may say this is irresponsible but i'm happy to accept the risks & some of the best skiers i've known have skied a significant proportion of their time off piste alone. It's an unfortunate situation but it's very hard to find people to ski big lines with off piste when on one week holidays & the reality of the situation is i've spent enough time babysitting/looking after people that aren't really up to it to know i'd rather be on my own & in control than be with someone but constantly having to look over my shoulder just in case. I also never go off piste without my transciever, shovel & probe. In saying all of the above the occasional times the couple of my friends that are really good skiers come away it's much more fun being able to push the boat out & know you've got someone watching you.
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i cant see how the lifty should bear any responsibility should someone decide to tell them they are going off piste.. should they make a note of where you were going, what time, conditions.. advise you on gear.. its like asking the turnstille operator at football if there will be any goals and should you rush the millwall end... they are paid to ensure everyone gets their butt off the lift in one bit.. what happens if you decide to take a different route n get pissed up in the bar.. what time does he call in the coptors
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Yes, the lifty at the cable-car was probably the wrong choice the time I mentioned (though I was simply saying I'd be back in 30 or 40 minutes at most - we aren't talking about advice here. Why didn't he just say he'd be going off duty). However it is quite hard to know who to tell and where to find them if it is just a one-off in the middle of the day as on that occasion. At that time I didn't have a mobile with me so couldn't call for help if I hurt myself - something I've been careful not to repeat.

frank4short I have PM'd you
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without a doubt, tell your hotel or apartment's desk, and tell the snow patrol if you can.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
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louisrumball wrote:
without a doubt, tell your hotel or apartment's desk, and tell the snow patrol if you can.
I did - they just gave me some crap about "If I just lay there" wink
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
fatbob wrote:
] I did - they just gave me some crap about "If I just lay there" wink
Huh? Meaning what? Puzzled
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Oh OK: I'm more of a Birtwistle and Elliott Carter sort of person myself.
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