 Poster: A snowHead
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Interesting report on France 3 news this evening talking about "temporarily" detached workers from other EU countries. It would appear the French govt. is looking at cracking down. It talked about Polish, Portugese but not the British.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Saw this in the Dauphine last week, two page spread. Flamby is wearing his annoyed face. Thought about posting it here but little point, consensus seems to be that no one gives a toss if the laws are broken so long as their holidays stay cheap.
Portugais and Poles in the construction industry are easy targets though, spot checks are simple and the industry is unionised. Hard to see it affecting Brits up mountains unless someone rubs an official the wrong way.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| Thought about posting it here but little point, consensus seems to be that no one gives a toss if the laws are broken so long as their holidays stay cheap. |
What a fatuous summary of others' views that happen to run counter to your own.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| Thought about posting it here but little point, consensus seems to be that no one gives a toss if the laws are broken so long as their holidays stay cheap. |
What a fatuous summary of others' views that happen to run counter to your own. |
Perhaps by fatuous you meant 'succinct'?
I must have missed the bit where the snowhead membership was up in arms about this; was there a boycott of UK tour operators exploiting these regulations to 'second' staff abroad, dock their wages below the statutory minimums of host countries and flout local labour legislation relating to hours and accommodation?
Silently turning a blind eye and continuing to use such companies speaks volumes.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Silently turning a blind eye and continuing to use such companies speaks volumes.
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I don't use TO's. However if you are in the know, name and shame if there are TO's who continue to break local laws and don't pay people a fair wage. Then people can make an informed decision about who they want to use.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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albinomountainbadger, The mostly rather privileged British young people who choose to work a season in a ski resort and find themselves able to put a roof over their heads AND spend many hours a week on an expensive pastime (something which they could probably not do in Britain on the legal minimum wage) do not invoke a huge amount of sympathy in me. There can be few groups of workers in the world with more genuine choice about what they do. There are many tourist destinations where there are more telling questions to be asked about the ethics of the holiday business. And there are plenty of foreign workers being heavily exploited in the UK, too - they work long hours for minimal pay and poor living conditions. But they don't get hours off each day to indulge in an expensive hobby and they have little prospect of changing their fortunes any time soon.
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| laundryman wrote: |
| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| Thought about posting it here but little point, consensus seems to be that no one gives a toss if the laws are broken so long as their holidays stay cheap. |
What a fatuous summary of others' views that happen to run counter to your own. |
Perhaps by fatuous you meant 'succinct'?
I must have missed the bit where the snowhead membership was up in arms about this; was there a boycott of UK tour operators exploiting these regulations to 'second' staff abroad, dock their wages below the statutory minimums of host countries and flout local labour legislation relating to hours and accommodation?
Silently turning a blind eye and continuing to use such companies speaks volumes. |
No, I chose the word deliberately and your follow up is just as fatuous. You assume there is widespread law-breaking, as opposed to working under the cover of EU laws that are deliberately designed to facilitate companies established in one jurisdiction to operate in another, including the deployment of staff contracted in one jurisdiction to work in another (generally to the benefit of company, staff and customers). As referred to in marksavoie's linked article:
| Quote: |
| Impossible pour le gouvernement d'ignorer ce qui est devenu l'un des chevaux de bataille de Marine Le Pen: la forte augmentation du nombre de travailleurs détachés en France, qui offre aux entreprises une main-d'œuvre étrangère bon marché en toute légalité. |
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| J9 wrote: |
| Quote: |
Silently turning a blind eye and continuing to use such companies speaks volumes.
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I don't use TO's. However if you are in the know, name and shame if there are TO's who continue to break local laws and don't pay people a fair wage. Then people can make an informed decision about who they want to use. |
at a guess all of the operators bend the rules and look for ways to reduce pay, certainly the large majority of people they pay in resort will be getting well below the french minimum wage.....
whether its fair is of course another discussion, although judging by the small profits they make it would certainly make me agree with mr badger in that most consumers dont care as long as they get a cheap holiday. I've certainly never seen an agent in business promoting themselves by saying the pay there chalet cleaners a fair living wage!
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| J9 wrote: |
| Quote: |
Silently turning a blind eye and continuing to use such companies speaks volumes.
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I don't use TO's. However if you are in the know, name and shame if there are TO's who continue to break local laws and don't pay people a fair wage. Then people can make an informed decision about who they want to use. |
Erm almost all - but then the local laws aren't really appropriate to the business model nor the circumstances of most seasonnaire workers who aren't after a long term marriage more a quick and dirty fling.
It could be termed a "blind eye" but since when was it the responsibility of the tourist to act as moral arbiter on the country's employment and social laws and taxation?
Personally I think a lot of TO staff could probably do a bit better for themselves by finding a job independently etc but the seduction is the no-effort package of accommodation, ski-pass and ski hire laid on a plate for them. It'd not as if they can't find out, thanks in part I think to albinmountainbadger's sterling spreadsheets how badly they're being exploited by Da Man.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| fatbob wrote: |
[
It could be termed a "blind eye" but since when was it the responsibility of the tourist to act as moral arbiter on the country's employment and social laws and taxation?
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You can apply that to any consumer transaction - clothes made in sweat shops, dolphins in sea parks that have come from Dolphin slaughter hunts in Japan, etc etc.
There is always a moral question to any transaction. Some see it as irrelevant. Some include it in their choosing criteria.
My own view is that the Ruperts and Henriettas tend to get a reasonably good deal out of season work. The angle that might make it uncomfortable is that other companies who have to comply by another set of rules are not playing on a level playing field.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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to say that seasonal works get a "reasonably good deal" is a bit simplistic, there are some terrible employers around who stay in business simply because people dont care.
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I don't disagree with you. Just think in the scheme of exploitation, the Henriettas are a few steps down the sympathy ladder for me than Vietnamese Pearl fishers.
I do think though that as a principle, flouting local employment laws and getting an unfair cost advantage should be routed out and would have sympathy for the french if they did clamp down on alleged breaches.
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You know it makes sense.
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pam w, just because you think those employed do not merit your sympathy does not excuse blatant ignorance of the law.
I fully understand that people don't care for Arabella and Henrietta, but have a thought for Henri et Juliette who are attempting to run a business competing with English Ski Ltd of Mayfair, but as a result of being locally registered are forced to pay decent wages and social charges, respect staff hours, keep staff until the end of their contracts and source decent accommodation for them. Hardly a level playing field is it?
The other argument is that paying well and respecting all the regulations would be so expensive people wouldn't get to do seasons and so it would hurt the very people it is aimed to help. I seem to remember similar arguments being made about giving decent pay and conditions to workers in Bangladesh and Chinese Foxconn factories. People also said, "but they want to do it so what's the harm?"
Laundryman, your ignorance and misquoting of an article is stunning. I won't address the misquote in detail but they are simply saying Le Pen wants to throw out all foreign workers even those who are here legally. Re your other point, I don't assume anything, I know there is widespread rule breaking performed by the UK tourist industry abusing the unfortunately vague seconded worker directive (the one the French are now making a fuss about). I have quoted the relevant passages of the Code du Travail in other threads, I have seen fake euro payslips and timesheets for British employees, and I have an email from a UK TO telling me they have to do xyz to, "look as if we are conforming to local laws." The anecdotes exchanged in bars about being employed by a random payroll agency in a second or even third unrelated country are countless.
If you ever find yourself in a British operated bar, chalet or hotel ask the staff some simple questions such as, how many of you are there in your room, do you have a window, do you have bunk beds, and is it a mezzanine or loft space? Nearly all these will be answered in a way that confirms French rules have been broken, and we haven't even touched on wages or hours.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Thu 28-11-13 18:48; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| If you ever find yourself in a British operated bar, chalet or hotel ask the staff some simple questions such as, how many of you are there in your room, do you have a window, do you have bunk beds, and is it a mezzanine or loft space? Nearly all these will be answered in a way that confirms French rules have been broken, and we haven't even touched on wages or hours. |
i wonder how different the responses would be from French employees who are paying for their own accommodation out of their minimum wage?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Arno, that's both unlikely given French season workers culture and irrelevant here. The Code du Travail sets down standards that employer-provided accomm must meet. Part of the British TO package is accommodation hence a private comparison doesn't come into it.
However, if a French person decides to hire his own lodgings he can choose what he wants, just like a Brit, but will most likely be paid extra in compensation. My employer proposes 250€ per month (I asked for and received 300€). On the other hand it is incredibly rare to find people who have successfully opted out of accommodation and been compensated for it working for a UK TO.
Also a person of any nationality hiring private lodgings will have all the protection of the law behind him, including the one that bans evictions during the winter months. No danger of being sacked and finding himself on the street within hours (anyone who has done a season knows someone who has experienced that with a UK TO).
There was a case not so long ago in Alpe d'Huez where a British run hotel took on some French staff and tried to give them the same conditions as their British staff. The French staff promptly called the authorities and the place was shut down. No winners their obviously, but it shows two things, 1) if the rules has been respected the French wouldn't have complained nor the business closed, and 2) there aren't enough proactive checks, the authorities only react to complaints.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| Arno, that's both unlikely given French season workers culture and irrelevant here. The Code du Travail sets down standards that employer-provided accomm must meet. Part of the British TO package is accommodation hence a private comparison doesn't come into it. |
I'd say the relevance is whether UK TOs following the French laws would make any difference to the living conditions of their workers
I take your point about evictions, but I am also sure we can find sob stories about people who lost their job and then were stuck with paying rent they couldn't afford, or people sharing a flat with someone who does one mid season leaving those who remain to pay his/her rent for the rest of the tenancy
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
have a thought for Henri et Juliette who are attempting to run a business competing with English Ski Ltd of Mayfair, but as a result of being locally registered are forced to pay decent wages and social charges, respect staff hours, keep staff until the end of their contracts and source decent accommodation for them. Hardly a level playing field is it?
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Actually, as you might have noticed from my other contributions to this debate, I agree that British businesses should respect the French law. But not because of the downtrodden chaps doing their gap yah.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| Laundryman, your ignorance and misquoting of an article is stunning. I won't address the misquote in detail but they are simply saying Le Pen wants to throw out all foreign workers even those who are here legally |
The quote talks about the strong growth in cheap, legal foreign labour being an issue, not repatriation as a solution; and that the government cannot ignore the issue, which Le Pen bangs on about. The quote is verbatim, not a misquote; your informal translation of that quote is selective and wrong.
I'm sure there are some British operators who ignore the law as it applies to them. I'm sure there are others who shelter legally under the protection of EU directives that facilitate transnational business and employment. And others who apply French law to the letter. I dare say there are French companies who bend the rules here and there as well.
But smearing the majority of snowHeads, implicitly placing yourself on a higher moral plane, as you did in your first contribution, is not justified by your personal anecdotes.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| pam w wrote: |
| albinomountainbadger, The mostly rather privileged British young people who choose to work a season in a ski resort |
What an utterly ridiculous generalisation. My youngest is just starting her third season and she is certainly not privileged. Having been out to see her the previous two seasons and met most of her friends / work mates, they weren't either.
We don't give her any money or do her any favours and she works her backside off on minimum wage in a pub during the summer to scrape together enough money to get through the season with a few comforts.
You're obviously frequenting different resorts / hotels / bars to me or have watched too many fly-on-the-wall documentaries.
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FAQ
