 Poster: A snowHead
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As I read the various threads, it seems 'lesson wise' that if kids don't end up in the park, that they seem to end up on gates. I get the competitive aspect of racing and why it may appeal to some kids for that reason, but is the action of skiing the gates actually good for their skiing overall too, or is it too focussed on the single skill of getting round the gate to generally develop their skiing ability. When they reach a certain level in their skiing is skiing gates good for them?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I've had a lesson (one) during each of the last two seasons............ both times the instructors have headed straight to the gates... different instructors different resorts.... both times they've said forcing you to turn on a predefined route as opposed to turning where you want to turn makes a lot of difference......
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Well, just from having watched a lot of the local ski-club kids training on gates around our area over the past 6 seasons, I'd say it was very good for them. However, I'd also say that it's pretty irrelevant for the average British child who goes on a family holiday for a week or so a year. Loads of our kids enjoy swimming, and may have lessons to improve their swimming, but how many of them are going to join the "training for two hours before breakfast every morning" brigade?
For most British kids who are athletic and competitive there are going to be more accessible and less expensive sporting opportunities nearer home, I guess - athletics, football, rugby, tennis, swimming, diving, gymnastics, sailing, baton twirling..... But if you have a good local club where they can race on plastic, it's obviously the route to becoming very expert. One of my son's friends, now a BASI 1 instructor and living and working in Tignes, apparently started with a bunch of mates, spending every spare minute on one of the plastic slopes in England.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| As I read the various threads, it seems 'lesson wise' that if kids don't end up in the park, that they seem to end up on gates. I get the competitive aspect of racing and why it may appeal to some kids for that reason, but is the action of skiing the gates actually good for their skiing overall too, or is it too focussed on the single skill of getting round the gate to generally develop their skiing ability. When they reach a certain level in their skiing is skiing gates good for them? |
Well if it's the local kids then it's surely so that they can get good enough so they could pass their Eurotest when they grow up and become a 'moniteur du ski' - I'm sure that learing to ski gates well enough to pass is easier if you've been doing it since you're 7/8/9/10 etc rather than trying to pass it when you're 40...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Skiing gates is fantastic for a kid's overall skiing. You develop the control to alter turn radius while working the skis and using the edges properly. Getting a good basic foundation is very important and gates helps with instilling this. The techniques learned are applicable all over the mountain. A combination of some gate training and some all-mountain skiing would be ideal.
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What else can you do on a 150 metre slope in the UK (for most of the year and particularly in the South)?
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| Sideshow_Bob wrote: |
| Skiing gates is fantastic for a kid's overall skiing. You develop the control to alter turn radius while working the skis and using the edges properly. Getting a good basic foundation is very important and gates helps with instilling this. The techniques learned are applicable all over the mountain. A combination of some gate training and some all-mountain skiing would be ideal. |
I would think "all-mountain skiing" for kids means skiing around the park!  All very good training for developing skiing skill, I must say.
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My daughter, aged 9, does race training on plastic as well as local summer races and she thoroughly enjoys it (the most important thing I'd suggest). I got her involved in this because truthfully there's not a lot of places to go if skiing on plastic after mastering the basics, the alternative, certainly whilst we're 'stuck' in the south, is to accept skiing is just an occasional holiday thing. As a result I do think her general skiing has improved immeasurably and she's happy to ski pretty much all on-piste terrain with me (although I've never taken her down bumps) although her technique still needs to be honed on the mountain.
When you are stuck with plastic slopes though (or even domes) in England there are downsides. As far as I can ascertain it is generally accepted on the continent that kids train to ski the whole mountain as as well as, or even before, undertaking gates and even then they tend to train initially in GS rather than slalom in order to get their wider radius carving better before moving into narrower gates. On plastic (or in domes) that's not really an option unfortunately. I've seen the same with clubs in Scotland where even the dry slope based kids will get up to the snow whenever they can and spend time skiing the whole mountain and learning varied technique rather than narrowing it down straight away, perhaps that one of the reasons why a disproportionate number of people in the UK team have historically come from Scotland?
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| Megamum wrote: |
| but is the action of skiing the gates actually good for their skiing overall too, or is it too focussed on the single skill of getting round the gate to generally develop their skiing ability. |
To ski gates well you must have extremely good core technique. You might be able to get away with less precise technique when skiing around the mountain (or just up and down an artificial or indoor slope), but if you try that in gates you're going to get found out within two or three turns. So if you put aside the competitive element (which many kids love) for a moment, having focused gate training really means have focused development on core ski technique. The "single skill of getting around the gate" as you call it is, in fact, the very technique that is at the heart of all skiing.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rob@rar, well put.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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As a mediocre skier, I can see the value of gate training whether or not you have an interest in racing. Trying to do even a modest slalom course on a benign slope is very difficult for those of who have rather dodgy technique, even though we can get around the mountainside quite happily. In other words, what rob@rar said.
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Gates are great they don't hurt as bad as trees do when you get it wrong.
Again, I second what rob@rar said.
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You know it makes sense.
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as Rob says it it must be right.....
said six hours earlier mind;
| marcellus wrote: |
| -------------------------- forcing you to turn on a predefined route as opposed to turning where you want to turn makes a lot of difference...... |
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Megamum, there's a difference between gate training and race training, although obviously race training does include gates. It's very good for everyone's technique (not just kids). Various aspects have been mentioned before, but the real benefit for kids IMO is that belonging to the local club and doing local races is a motivating factor for them to improve their skiing technique.  With the plastic slopes around, and clubs are not that expensive to belong to, there's little reason for many young snowheads not to be or become excellent skiers.
when I was training the Aldershot team we insisted that the kids had a decent level of skiing before we allowed them to take part in any race - they were so proud on their first outing. Then we insisted that they concentrate on skiing a good line at the expense of 'trying' to go fast, and - gosh - lots of them did really well just by doing that. Later they could go for it and we had 2 go into the England squad. (Not counting the All England Senior Champion and Westgate Ladies Vets etc).
Of the others, they didn't go into ski racing, but they've been given a very solid skill base to enjoy for the rest of their lives. They'll all still be skiing at 60 and 70 and 80 because they ski properly and well. They will all be able to ski all over the mountain in all sorts of condions and all sorts of snow for the same reasons. What better reason could there be?
Having said all that, there are some training programmes which can get rather one dimensional on the carving front, and that needs to be carefully monitored. I had a couple of the MK kids (7 and11) in very deep snow and very close trees earlier this year - we had a blast! Most snowheads would be completely unable to ski where I took these guys. 
abc, Why only the park - there are all the off piste possibilities too.
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Poster: A snowHead
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easiski, I've often thought it would be good for my skiing to do some gates - but absolutely not with any view to going particularly fast, or ever racing..... left it a bit late for that! Any chance of doing some gates at the Fast 'n Easy camp?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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pam w, Maybe - haven't though of that at the moment though.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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This is all very interesting. Although my pair had more fun at Prosneige in VT, their Swiss ski school always finshed their week with the organisation of a race through gates for their participants (adults invited too if they wanted it). The kids found it fun. 
At the moment I can't provide a realistic opportunity for them to ski, even on plastic, on a regular basis, but maybe it is something that there might be an opportunity for them to do in the future if its going to be good for them.
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As others have said, if in England there's really nowhere else to go but towards gates and I think that most of the kids who do it find the competition side of things adds interest.
Also as others have said it's very good for the fundamental technique development (whatever your age), that allows your on and off piste skiing to progress to higher levels.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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abc, Why only the park - there are all the off piste possibilities too
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I would think kids in general would want to jump and do odd things they aren't expect to do.
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Megamum, We do very, very little full sized gates training with mini's (6-11) at MK. We only introduce them the full size gates when they are ready for it and will only do a few runs per session and when in full sized gates we are focussing more on course inspection and line. Adult size poles hurt when a little kid hits em... We mainly use stubbies, brushes and we now have "gummy" gates which are floppy rubbery gates that are 2 feet highish... the minis do very well in those.
As Easkiski says race training doesnt neccessarily involve gates, and that is something parents dont seem to get and causes a lot of friction. At the younger ages it is mainly about skills development and creating good all round skiers, gates is secondary and for as they get older. There is a big push on to eliminate slalom races for minis and have "combi" courses that include small jumps, boarder cross banks, tunnels to ski under etc. The Mini races at the British CHampionships is called an "event" not a "race"...
easiski, who from MK did you have out? we have a very good crop of minis at the moment and some are frightenly good!!
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| Quote: |
There is a big push on to eliminate slalom races for minis and have "combi" courses that include small jumps, boarder cross banks, tunnels to ski under etc
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That sounds really good!
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pam w, Lots more about that in Fun4Minis: http://www.britski.org/fun4minis.pdf
But my 7yo will be bashing the gates at Gloucester tomorrow. He's ultra-competitive, and wants a new set of poles (existing ones a bit, uhm, misshapen) - dad doesn't help by promising him new poles if he comes top of his age group (which he did do a few times last year).
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skimottaret, I've seen them use the little brushes at their ski school in Switzerland, although I hadn't considered that aspect of it you must be quite right about the adult style gates being hard to hit.
easiski, Minimum_1 has a 'thing' about off piste and jumps, at the moment I am trying to instill the safety aspects of doing it into her. Of course the instructors tend to encourage it - they took them off piste and to the 'park' in their lessons this year. What I keep telling her is that of course it is probably OK to do both with an instructor, but she mustn't assume that is OK to do so from a safety perspective when she is with me.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Megamum,
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off piste and jumps
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When I do this I always always emphasise to the group that on no account are they to go over any jump unless I do first. If I spot them doing otherwise they're banned from jumping.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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beanie1, Absolutely! Megamum, Discipline for kids skiing with parents seems to often be a problem. Make your rules and stick to them. You can emphasise that the rules are for your peace of mind (you don't want to make the kids afraid of anything), but if they break one the previously agreed punishment (no skiing the next day is a good one) must be adhered to. If the other/s also have to put up with the punishment they won't do it again!
RobW, Good for you and him - No wonder we don't win much when the younger kids are not 'allowed' be be competitive - stupid, stupid idea.  (spoken as one who's just been to the local club's prize-giving)
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easiski, Of course we need competition (did it ever really go away), but we need to ensure those who finish fifth, sixth or tenth stay in the sport. After all, they are the ones who will comtinue to provide the competition later.
Not everyone who trains wants or needs to race. Mine do, but what they really want to do is skier-cross - not much peace of mind for yours truly there, but possibly less dangerous than all out downhill. On the other hand they don't see a full-sized gate (on the dry slope) all winter.
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You know it makes sense.
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It's just parents living out their dreams via their children to compensate for their failures or lack of opportunities. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, I think in a lot of cases you may be right. And yet, if the child really does want to do it, it must lay down a good foundation in skiing skills - for life.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Nothing wrong with a bit of competition - in the right sort of way - but it seems hard to achieve. Especially if you have two quite keen kids, but one much more talented than the other. I had two lads keen on football and luckily the older, by two years, was far less talented, which more or less evened things up when they were mucking around with mates. It would have been grim had it been the other way round. It's a sad fact of life that wherever there is highly competitive kids' sport there seem to be ghastly parents - yelling at the ref, really upset if they lose, yelling at the kids, generally obnoxious. Fortunately none of mine had the right combination of talent and motivation. One of my nieces was exceptionally gifted at dance and gymnastics. She was pushed quite hard for a while at junior gym competitions but my sister saw red lights about potential damage - physical and emotional - and eased her back. She (my sister) had been quite keen on it all but she found that once she stopped talking about it and planning it (and organising it) the child really wasn't very bothered and moved on to other things.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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easiski, they do get a podium photo and medals at the brits mini's competition, the reason it is called an "event" is that it the minis champs arent officially part of the Snowsport GB National Championship races but are run by BARSC.
Kids should be encouraged to be competitive but entering more than a handful of races a year for minis is a bad thing IMO better to do more training than competing at that age.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Britain has only 1 realistic chance to be a title challenging success and that's Freestyle, forget the rest, failing a freak talent discovery.
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"I will tell you what little Jonny needs, how he skis, how many pairs of skis he has got, his ranking at his local club." boasted Jonny's Father as Jonny, (12yrs) sat in total silence, embarrassed, wearing his local club jersey with his winning (5th place) badges stitched over his mouth to prevent him expressing his own feelings, needs and indeed aspirations.
"Then we can talk about his canting, edge angles, binding mouting, type of waxes." the Fat Mouthed jerk off of a Father continued as little Jonny shank further into the bootfitter's Sofa, revealing his Pi$$ stained tracksuit bottoms.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sat 2-05-09 15:22; edited 1 time in total
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| Megamum wrote: |
| What's the fascination with gate training for kids? |
Good question. I can't think of anything that fascinated me less, as a kid.
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| Britain has only 1 realistic chance to be a title challenging success and that's Freestyle, forget the rest, failing a freak talent discovery. |
interesting view... but the best freestyle <12 (mason F) i have seen in Britain also trains gates... out of the sponsored riders in teh domes only a handful of the youngsters are freestylers... http://www.snozoneuk.com/html/uk-home/about-us/our-riders/
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Out of the sponsored riders in the domes. That's awesome. 'Dome Gnomes'.
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skimottaret, By sponsorship you mean free gear?
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