 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi all
I've spotted a problem with junior's binding this week (well, actually his coach did!). He skis on Head World Cup Race SW skis with the SL90 Race bindings fitted, and wears Nordica Dobermann Team60 boots in MP 21.0 (shell is 21.0/21.5).
The problem we've spotted is the there is around 3mm of vertical 'play' in the toe binding i.e. if he puts his weight forward there is a gap of around 3mm from the top of the boot toe piece to the underside of the binding. Also if he leans back (which he knows he should NEVER do!  ) the boot lifts to meet the binding and the said 3mm gap appears between the sole of the boot and the binding plate. Hope I've explained it well enough that you know what I'm on about!
Does anyone have any suggestions what can be done about this? He complained a couple of weeks ago when racing at Welwyn that he couldn't get the skis to turn properly and this may go someway to explaining it i.e. lack of transmission from boot to ski. I've just been on to Bartlett's (got the boots from there but not the skis and trust them with anything) and they said the problem is the relatively small boot in a big binding. The smaller Head/Tyrolia bindings have a 'height adjuster' but only go up to DIN4.5 and he's on this already so that's a non-starter.
If I were to bond some tough plastic onto the top of the boot toe-piece, would I be compromising the integrity of the boot/binding connection, or is the 'gap' a bigger problem due to the pre-release/lack of transmission problems?
Any help would be much appreciated!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Sounds to me like a junior boot (16mm toe lug) in an adult binding ( looking for a 19 mm toe lug).
Tyrolia -did- have a toepiece that could fit both; there was a wedge at the front of the toe that could be pushed towards the heel to bias the toepiece towards junior boots. One just pushed it in.
If your binding does not have this wedge, you might have an adults-only version of the SL90. I'd look to replace it with the Adult+Junior version.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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comprex, thanks for that. That (I think) is generally the gist of what Sally Bartlett was saying but the wedge thing is only on the binding up to DIN4.5 (I think it's called the 045?)
I'll speak to Terry at Welwyn in a couple of weeks about the alternative binding as I wasn't aware of the 'adult only' and 'adult+junior' versions of the SL90. I'll be a bit miffed with the shop who sold us TWO pairs of the skis without mentioning it if that is the case! I won't give the shop's name as we know where things might lead!
Thanks again.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Hmm my daughter has children's boots and adult skis and bindings, in fact I've just changed her skis whilst her boots still fit OK. I'll take a look to see if she may have similar problem. As she's not racing though it probably wouldn't be such an issue.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Colin B wrote: |
| Hmm my daughter has children's boots and adult skis and bindings, in fact I've just changed her skis whilst her boots still fit OK. I'll take a look to see if she may have similar problem. As she's not racing though it probably wouldn't be such an issue. |
I think that's a pretty big issue as an excess gap will mean the binding won't perform as designed.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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spyderjon, Thanks, her last skis (which were adult skis too) can't have had a problem with those boots, you tested them on your machine last year and she's skied 5 weeks on them without any problems. I'm guessing the new ones will be the same. I'll look at the size of the front lugs to make sure.
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Colin B, if the toe piece automatically adjusts for height & it takes up the necessary slack with correct pressure then they could be ok. Put a business card on the AFD & click the boot in. You should be able to pull the card out with a firm but smooth pull. If it's tighter (unlikely) or slides out with little or no resistance then you have an issue. On bindings that have a manual toe height adjustment (like some Sallies) then not getting the correct 0.5mm (business card) boot/AFD clearance can affect the din release. If you're my way anytime then bring'em in & we'll torque test them.
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spyderjon, Thanks I'll try that. I'm planning to get up to see you to get our skis serviced before next Winter anyway.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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spyderjon, Tried that with her boots (Tecnica Diablo Team Super) and both her new (Dynastar She's Trouble/Dynastar Trouble Jib ) and old (Elan My Spice/Fusion) skis/bindings. Both seemed to pass the test, more resistance with the new skis than the old but the Elan's have a reasonable amount of resistance too. I'll get them checked by you to be certain before next winter.
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Urgency of problem somewhat alleviated.
Junior crashed during warm up for Celtic Cup race on Sunday and has broken two bones in his left hand. Was it pre-release? Guess we'll never know, but he won't be racing for six weeks....... 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Jon.L, sorry to hear that Best wishes to him for a speedy recovery.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Jon.L, sorry to hear that but are you saying that he continued to race on the same boot/binding combo without having them checked/corrected?
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spyderjon, I'm afraid to admit it, but that was sort of the case. I had bonded a 3mm 'plate' onto the top of his toe lugs and they certainly seemed to do the job (albeit it was only ever a temporary measure). He commented on Saturday how much more 'solid' it felt and seemed happy to continue. Unfortunately, after his fall on Sunday, the 'plates' on both boots were nowhere to be seen.
The application of the plates was done on the advice of an ex-GB racer who I trusted knew what he was on about. Like I said, it was only ever intended to be a temporary measure as I am waiting for the Head dealer to get back to me about a conversion kit for the bindings.
And yes, I am currently feeling very guilty and irresponsible.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Jon.L wrote: |
| ......The application of the plates was done on the advice of an ex-GB racer who I trusted knew what he was on about...... |
There's ya problem to start with 
Jon.L, Getting a real strong bond would be real tricky.....probably need something like Araldite 2011 which is waterproof/flexible & cured under heat & pressure etc. I'd probably want to add a couple of pins to help the bond also but I'd still be concerned.
My solution would be 3mm lift plates under the toe of the boot affixed to the sole as used when correcting too much forward lean. CEM would be able to do that. The raising of the toes would alter the skier's stance for better or worse but CEM could test for that at the same time & if it was detrimental the bindings could be shimmed to get things back to the correct delta angle.
I can't remember if junior boots have a shallower heel lug as well but have you also checked that for excessive clearance?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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spyderjon, I used Araldite though I'm not sure which exact product.
The heel seems absolutely solid when he's in his bindings, but if I were to apply lift plates to his toe lugs, I would presumably need to do the heel as well to avoid him being 'pushed back' in his stance?
I'm waiting to hear about the 'conversion' kit that is designed to allow an adult binding to take a junior boot, but if this is not available then I'll certainly be looking at the lift plates on the boots.
My overriding concern in all this is that they are clearly junior skis (Head World Cup Race SW in 120cm - these) so why aren't the SL90 bindings that come with them (described on the Head website as 'junior race bindings') able to take a junior boot?
I'm going to contact Head today to try and get some clarity on the options available. I've got five or six weeks to get it sorted, and I'm going to make sure it's done right - no more 'quick fixes'!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Jon.L, Normal Araldite would be too stiff/brittle.
Toe lifts can be a good or bad thing depending on the individual skier's boot set-up/binding delta angle etc. The Tyrolia bindings have 3mm of delta (ie heel is 3mm higher than the toe) which is designed to help the skier get forward. However for many skiers this delta angle causes them to be too far forward & so they have to stick their backsides out to balance. Note that the smaller the boot the greater the actual tilt of the boot would be so it would be more of a problem to a junior. This is why in my above post I said that have having the toe lifts could be a good thing. Check-out this current thread: http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=52475
I do good business shimming up toe bindings for racers & recreational skiers (to either reduce the delta or even to raise the toe hieght above that of the heel) however the diagnosis & boot work needs to be first by CEM.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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spyderjon, thanks for all your advice. I have been reading that other topic this morning.
I'll make sure everything is sorted properly one way or another before he gets his skis on again.
Thanks again.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Has this ever been solved? This must be a common problem. My daughter is on Salomon C5 bindings with a junior boot. She just asked me about her toe being loose. I never noticed until she asked me. The Salomon binding has a spring loaded AFD that compresses under VERY LITTLE pressure to accommodate an adult boot. So, forward pressure with a junior boot results in ~3mm of free play in the toe piece. I'm considering putting a 3mm shim between the boot and the replaceable lug soles to make the heel and to the same thickness as an adult boot.
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