 Poster: A snowHead
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I don't know... and they wonder why I get irate and keep asking them questions!
The tourist office is offering us significant discounts if we book ski lessons for our kids in Serre Che. My heart says "use EurekaSki" as I'm confident that they'd be best for the kids, but my head is telling me there's no darned way I'm going to be able to get them over to Monetier from Villeneuve every morning in time (we won't have the car now so would have to rey on catching the bus).
So the tourist office is offering 6 mornings with ESF or Buissonniere. We are yet to clarify with the T/Office whether the Buissonniere package includes kids, or is just for adults, but the ESF one is definitely for kids. I have a middling position on the ESF. One good holiday with and one bad one... and I have had a few good reports about Buissoniere, so they're my favourite choice, but, as I say, their "package" may not be valid for kids (in which case we'd have to pay £20 extra - but it may be worth it at this rate!)
I decided to email the ESF in villeneuve to tell them we were getting a package for them or Buissonniere through the tourist office, ask about morning lessons, not afternoons, did they limit group sizes for lessons, did they have specialist teachers there, did they have English teachers for kids there and did they give proper instruction or adhere to the old favourite "follow me" style of tuition?
The answer I got told me they limited the group size to 10 for afternoon lessons (er... I asked about MORNING lessons... what about them? No limit then?), that I could book through their website for 89 euros (um, I told you that we were getting this as a package deal through the tourist office!) and that they had "lots of English teachers" (but do you have English speaking KIDS instructors?).
They did, at least, tell me that they remained at my "disposition" for further questions, so I've asked pretty much the same questions again... we'll see what happens...
You know, if I was running a ski school, I think I'd start to put together a fairly comprehensive FAQ after a couple of seasons and, oh I don't know, maybe put them on the website so that potential customers didn't feel the need to ask lots of questions via email...
Is this kind of indicative of the ESF attitude France-wide? Kind of a "we're so big we don't need to try very hard" and it's the smaller schools that make the effort as they need to be more concerned about gaining and retaining customers? Would anyone local or with experience of the Villeneuve branch of the ESF care to offer an opinion of them? Should I pay the extra £20 and stick them in the Buissonniere ski school (limits groups to 8 max, allegedly) if I can't get the package through the tourist office?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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carled, I know one of the ESF instructors in Chantemerle reasonably well. Well enough, certainly, to give him a call and ask whether or not he could recommend an instructor by name. I still reckon the extra hassle to get to Monetier would be worth it for the benefit of using Eurekaski though. Have you asked them whether as a special deal their instructor could meet your group in Villeneuve? If your group is first lesson of the day, that might be possible to achieve.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I will nail my colours to the mast straight away by saying I am very anti ESF. I am sure there are good ones, its just I haven't come across them.
The ESF has lots of challenges to get over. In many places they have been the only game in town and still act as if that is so. The reason seems to be that they run as a collective and that although there is a management team, the policies are normally decided by the senior instructors - old timers who are very anti change. Who gets to teach is decided on seniority so new instructors are right down the pecking order and you might be the best instructor in the world, but 60 year old Gauloise smoking Claude who has been with the ski school since he was a boy has first refusal!
While most of the ESF schools do try to develop their isntructors, you still see old timers using teaching methods that went out with the ark. And there doesn't seem to be a lot the schools can do about it.
Last year our nanny, a first time skier, ended up with the ESF because they were the only ones who had lessons available at the right time. Day one was great but for day 2 she was meant to go up a group. She arrived at the new group and the battleaxe of an instructor told her there were too many so she had to go back to day 1 group again. I ahppened to go with her on day 3 and exactly the same was about to happen when I stepped in. I very politely told the instructor that the same had happened the day before and that Fiona had more than outgrown the "day 1" group. At that point the shouting started. "Who did I think I was. Was I an instructor. How dare I tell her how to teach" etc. I couldn't believe it and nore could others standing around. I managed to keep calm and when she finally commented that in her opinion she wasn't ready for the group I asked her how she had made that assessment, seeing she had never seen Fiona ski! She went quite for a moment and then said she had spoken to the day 1 instructor about Fiona. Knowing this was a lie I called her bluff and said I was going to get that instructor to discuss this as he was only standing 25 m away. At that point the Battleaxe replied " well, she had better join our group and if she holds us up, I will leave her"!
I am not saying the above is typical, but its the sort of story you hear time and again. I much prefer private ski schools that can and would sack poor instructors.
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Thanks Mark. As we're only putting 4 kids into ski school (2 of which are utter novices and the other two have 2 week's experience) I can't see them wanting to go to all that effort. I don't like the idea of having to get the kids up, breakfasted, dressed and organised half an hour early every day to ensure we make that bus to Monetier! I have bad memories of missing buses and having to hunt round half the mountain to find my daughters' ski class last time! Maybe Mel will have something to say on the subject, but I just can't see it being practical, unfortunately.
I know it's not really down to the ESF - it's the instructor you get - they could be great or could be exceedingly indifferent. I like the idea of you getting a name, the only trouble is trying to ensure we end up with that person! The person who's been answering my emails in Villeneuve is Sandra Douabin if that helps. I can see us turning up there asking for "Mr/Mrs/Miss X" and being told, "but monsieur, they only teach the olympic race children's class..." or something similar! If your acquaintance knows who is likely to take the utter beginner English children and who is likely to take the "2 weeks experience" children and can recommend them, then that puts my mind at rest a bit.. then it's down to how big the class size will be and whehter they teach properly or just form a crocodile and go round the mountains!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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carl, do I take it that you're looking for 2 separate lessons starting at the same time? As soon as you indicate, I'll put in a call and see where that gets us.
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carled,
For what it is worth, I have experience of both ski schools for children. When we used ESF I have no complaints particularly, but their class sizes were large usually 12 per group. As I have said before thay also use a slightly more queue prone area for their lessons.
We now use Bussonniere whenever we are in Serre Che and our experiences have been uniformally positive. The size of group does not exceed 8 in my experience. The standard of English is generally good, a couple of the instructors and one of the office staff are native English speakers. There are a couple of the childrens instructors with more limited English, however I would have to say that these instructors are some of the most kind hearted child friendly instructors my children have had.
My children and friends children whom we have been with have been young whilst taking lessons the oldest is now 10 so for older children I cannot comment.
My experience of most childrens ski schools at this age is that a lot of the instruction is by immitation rather than a lot of technical work, hence whichever school you use there may be a fair bit of follow me. What little I have seen of the ESF instruction though in Villeneuve it seemed fine.
This has probably not answereed your questions and I would hesitate to suggestl you which to use as opinions will always vary but those are mine.
T Bar
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The kids in question are my two daughters (aged 7 & 11) who have two weeks experience and are pretty confident, but scrappy in technique, as would be expected at that age/experience level and two boys aged 10 & 8 who belong to a friend. They have no experience at all (although I think they're being taken for a couple of hours at the snowdome soon to get a basic lesson or two). As befits boys of this age, they think they will be taking on black runs after half an hour on the slope...
Mark - the only reason I'm mentally separating the boys from my daughters is because I'm pretty confident they won't end up in a group together. Furthermore I reckon the two girls may be split up too as one is noticeably better than the other. We're in resort from Sunday 20th - Sunday 27th March and only want the kids to be in ski school until the Friday so we can spend all day Saturday with them a bit further afield from where we'd usually go - maybe try and get round most of the lift system if things go well!
As I mentioned in my first post, the Tourist Office have special deals and packages and offer reasonable discounts over booking direct with the schools themselves. They are only offering the 6-morning package with the ESF, which is DEFINITELY for children and 6 mornings with Buissonniere, which we are still trying to establish if it covers children or not. Obviously we could tell the tourist office to forget it and book direct whereever we want, but it would seem to be daft to do that if we can save ourselves 20 euros per child by going via the tourist office... as long as the children ended up where they would be well looked after.
Does that help or have I not answered your question?
T-Bar - thanks for that info - most useful. It's the group size as much as anything else I'm worried about...
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carl, the ESF in Villeneuve have a Swedish instructor by the name of Susannah who speaks fluent English and by all accounts is excellent. She's in her mid 30's and has young children herself. Highly recommended, so that might solve part of the situation. The person that I know down there reckoned that finding other English fluent instructors shouldn't pose a problem though.
I've also just been offered some accomodation in Chantemerle for WC 19th March, and am sorely tempted to book something! Will let you know.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Thanks Mark. Hmm... Swedish, mid 30's... I think I might insist on taking the girls to lessons every day! Seriously, thanks everyone for the input. I'll badger all parties concerned to see what comes along and I'll mention Susannah's name to my ESF contact to see what she says.
If you're over when I am, I'll buy you a large beer for your troubles - let me know! (If you're allowed to talk to me, that is... I'm a darksider...  )
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I used to ski, so that's a least a little bit of mitigation, y'r honour! This accommodation offer come about by way of conversation with your local friend then?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Yes. We've always stayed in the same place and just got to know the owners really well - he's an ESF instructor and wine merchant and she's English with a reputation for her cooking (awesome). It's a really homely place, very friendly and near the lifts. I came across the place from the tourist office website I think and we've been there 4 times now. When I called and mentioned we were thinking of trying to get out, a deal for the 19th was offered.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Fri 28-01-05 12:41; edited 1 time in total
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Nice looking place! Good wine, good cooking, good ski instruction and good accommodation. Can't knock any of that. I'll catch up with you nearer the time and we'll swap mobile numbers or what colour carnations to wear in our lapels at the apres-ski bar!
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You know it makes sense.
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just back from serre che - didn't follow my instinct to make journey from villeneuve to monetier and eurekaski (my apologies to all concerned there, and my thanks for their prompt communications and wishes of bonne voyage)
ended up with esf villeneuve - on a relatively quiet week in january (when one would imagine there is a surfeit of teachers) - our class started with 11, briefly reduced to 10 and was up to 13 by the end of the week - the level 1 and level 3 classes were split into 2 small groups of 6/7 but we were left with 1 teacher (admittedly she was good) coping with 13 adults of varying ability and a mix of english/french speakers - esf clearly need to up their game .... i'll be going small school next time, and probably for 1-2-1 or 1-few-1 ratio in order to get some proper teacher time
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Blimey... 13 in a group - not good. You really can't see how they'd expect to get any decent tuition in there, would you? Even if she divided her time absolutely evenly and you were being monitored for 75% of your skiing time (highly unlikely!) then you'd be getting 3 and a half minutes each per hour of her attention! Not the best, is it... Hmmm... I think I'd better investigate the Buissonniere deal a little more.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Just for the record, I went to Serre Che a while ago in a group of three; massively wide range of experience. We had a private lesson with a Buissoniere instructor who did a marvellous job, focusing on the new skier as requested but still managing some tips for the others. Of course it's the instructor, not the school, but I feel safer with a smaller school purely on the basis that they ought to be trying harder. I remember an Avis campaign many years ago where they proudly claimed to be #2 in car hire.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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doogo, You don't say which ski school you used.
carled, Bousonniere is actually run by a French qualified English woman (Davina) who is excellent. Her brother Darren also works for them I think. Don't even think about ESF unless it's for private lessons (which isn't what you're talking about). Give Davina a ring and talk to her directly. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Helen Beaumont, Yes it is! I can't speak about his teaching but he's one of the most talented skiers I've ever had the privilege to coach, and was a dreadful loss to the British ski team all those years ago. They should have got their heads out of their back bottoms and worked with him - we don't find too much world class talent in the UK! 
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easiski, I think I may have met him in Serre Che before (probably in the bar)!! I met an English ski instructor (female) while out there in August, but I think she worked up in Montgenvre for ESF.
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Both Davina and Darren taught in Tignes on an Improver's course run by SCGB last December and both were very good. You can't go wrong with either of them.
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