 Poster: A snowHead
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I went on a 7 day ski trip last week in a group of 4.
We booked a package deal with one of the big names. Flight, transfer and accomodation in Les Arcs 2000 for
£405. Not too bad considering that the original list price was somwhere more like £700.
The flight and transfer were fine.
The chalet was an apartment style chalet. Location was great. The interior had seen better days, but it was pretty sound. The rooms were probably best described as slightly on the small side. The living/dining room was just about large enough for 12 people. Actually, it wasn't really big enough, but we all got on well enough not to care.
In general, everything was sort of alright, but if I'd paid full price then I'd have felt a little bit hard done by.
We got there at 4pm and they were still busy cleaning it. They didn't really finish off the living room - people commented on finding empty bottles and other tat under the sofas.
Due to an injury then the regular chalet host couldn't cook, so we had a stand in, bussed from another resort. He was then replaced by someone else for a day, and finally someone else for the last 2 days.
All of them were really easy going, friendly and did the best under the circumstances.
Now, I'm not really a natural complainer, but I sort of felt that because none of them saw it as their full time chalet then they didn't feel a great sense of responsibility towards it. They tended to cook something out whatever ingredients they found, but it never felt like there was a proper organised plan.
There was a large vegetable rack next to the dining table and someone pointed out rotting vegetables one day.
Some of the other guests commented on the state of the fridge, and that was cleaned out properly.
It's all small stuff, but it added to the impression that someone, somewhere really didn't quite care enough. Some of the food was really good. Some of it went slightly wrong. We dealt with it.
Most of all though the party were unimpressed with reps. They advertised a bar crawl and then didn't turn up at the meeting place at the advertised time. Then they abandoned the event after the 2nd bar.
On another night we followed one of them on skis to a restaurant and were told to go in to meet another rep to find our table. Only he wasn't there, he was busy drinking and talking to friends. Later in the night we spent 2 hours waiting for transport back to our resort. We coped because we were waiting by a bar, but, we felt a bit abandoned.
You might get the impression that I spend all my skiing holidays mentally totting up reasons to be slightly underwhlemed. I assure you that I'm not. I had a really good holiday, skied like a loon every day, drank beer and laughed a lot. Everyone I met had the same attitude: none of us had paid full price, we wanted to go skiing, and we weren't really thaaat bothered about the details.
So it's more of a slightly disappointed feeling that things could have been a lot better with a bit more focus, and if I had paid full price I'd be feeling aggrieved.
The ski company reps seemed to have become more focussed on their social life than getting things done efficiently. There was a lack of focus on customers. There seemed to be an expectation that everything would be "cool" as long as they smiled a bit.
I am aware that they get a pretty raw deal financially. Maybe they have some sort of resentment towards their employer or manager and deal with that by detatching themselves from the job. I had some interesting conversations with a few and the common themes were cramped accomodation, low pay, and some contempt for the organisation.
We were bluntly honest when we filled in the feedback questionnaires.
Several things were rated as "poor".
Would I come back on another holiday with them? Possibly.
Would I recommend the company to others? Possibly.
I'd say "they're Ok as long as you get a good deal and don't expect too much".
Maybe my expectations were too high. I've stayed with another company (Inghams) before and we had a really clean apartment, large enough for the group and chalet host who had everything really well organised. That gave the impression of a really up together experience.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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nice blog
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Arno, 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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name 'em then
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I will soon.
Meanwhile guess: one of the big names, operate under at least 2 aliases.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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tomstickland, oooooh now let me see... Crystal / Thomson / First Choice? Or could it be Neilson / Airtours? It's a toughie. I bet Crystal.
Know what? YGWYPF
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Know what? YGWYPF |
Peanuts and monkeys spring to mind.
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tomstickland, doesn't take a genuis to work out who...
However, I've travelled with them on my last three trips and have nothing but praise. I agree it does depend a lot on the staff and there seems to be a big difference between gap year student types and 'professional' reps. Our reps in Courmayeur for example were on their third season there...
With regards to cramped accommodation, I remember this being a normal occurrence in France. I have horror memories of '8-berth apartments' on student trips and vowed never to share accommodation again. However, it was cheap means of going skiing in those days...
Glad none of these niggles spoiled your holiday though...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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My money's on Crystal.... it all sounds strangely familiar... 
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
tomstickland, oooooh now let me see... Crystal / Thomson / First Choice? Or could it be Neilson / Airtours? It's a toughie. I bet Crystal.
Know what? YGWYPF |
Good guess. Well, it's their other big UK name.
I don't think that YGWYPF is entirely true here though. We paid less for a better quality result 2 years ago.
I certainly wouldn't agree that it would be acceptable for the full brochure price.
The sad thing is that they could have provided a better result with virtuall no extra effort, just better organisation and possibly management.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
I don't think that YGWYPF is entirely true here though
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tomstickland, It so is though. The reps know you paid naff all, they know they get paid naff all, and the Tour Op is probably complaining to them that they're making naff all. Result = naff all care.
They fly you out there in a £30million machine, transfer you, put you up in an alpine property (no doubt ski-in ski-out) and feed you for a week for.... 405 quid! Less than 60 quid a day. I'd be "slightly impressed".
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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But its the same with any rep/excursion led tour operator - they make commission on, and are therefore incentivised by, luring you into bar crawls, ski lessons booked on the coach, raclette nights, etc. If the chalet staff are there for the craic, you get awful service, as they are generally always hungover or killing time before meeting their mates. If, however, your chalet host is there for the skiing/boarding, they are more likely to have your interests at heart and want you to love the resort as much as they do.
Example: same company as tomstickland last year, also in Les Arcs - Tom the sole chalet host (you'll know who you are mate) = awesome; always helpful and just loved sharing stories. Rest of the resort staff = utter carp; one wouldn't make eye contact after we told on the transfer coach that we already had skipasses and needed no lessons. The other genuinely turned nasty after we turned up at another table at "her" fondue night, after telling her that we didn't want to book through her.
Leopards and spots
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I'd say "they're Ok as long as you get a good deal and don't expect too much".
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I'd suggest that you should expect a flight, a transfer and a bed - then you won't be disappointed. Having thought chalets are the best all-in option for several years, I am now a firm DIY convert, just grabbing late deal packages for no-frills second and third trips.
Discuss 
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Most of my gripes are about the attitude. I'm not expecting to be treated like a lord. However, if I was doing the job then I'd approach if with a bit more self pride. It was all a bit, well, crummy.
Your argument is rather like claiming that the staff in a cut price retailer should all be surly and lazy because they know that the customers aren't paying full price.
Regarding the air fair, I'd imagine that with the power of quantity ordering for the season then a pretty good rate is achieved. Fair play, the transfers must cost a bit.
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You know it makes sense.
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My last two trips have been private bookings with chalets and driving out.
Three trips have been catered chalets, the first two much better than the last (for the same sort of money).
I regard discounted packages as the most cost effective way of doing things.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I regard discounted packages as the most cost effective way of doing things.
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and that's what they feed off. They know that's the market, that there's little loyalty, it's all price-driven. They know that even really p!ssed off customers come back at some time - either because they don't realise the common ownership of certain brands or because they can't resist the deal. Most travel experiences are over-sold and under-delivered. Complaining is too much of a pain and we move on.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Yeah, I agree with what you're saying. Basically a never ending lazy cycle of uninspiring mediocrity.
Thinking back, I've been on 3 catered chalet holidays, plus 2 self booked, and 2 self catered.
The first one I had nothing to compare it with, it was OK, chalet host seemed fed up though. Second was amazing. Third was this one.
Maybe it's just pot luck that sometimes you encounter those who have a bit more personal pride and provide something good.
My previous 2 holidays have been privately run chalets, so maybe I've got used to them. They have a better incentive to be good.
Some companies/locations must be better than others though.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
Basically a never ending lazy cycle of uninspiring mediocrity
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Yes, the reason why people got the cars they deserved in the 70s and 80s... if you go on buying this crap, we'll go on making it. The reason I always go DIY (and especially to Austria) is that, apart from sometimes paying a small deposit, you don't pay the full hotel bill until the day you leave. They have a good reason to make sure you're happy with everything throughout your stay. With tour ops you pay all up front and they have worked out that it is more profitable to handle a % of complaints than to serve better food etc. The Austrian model is holidays created by tourism professionals versus the UK tour op model that's created by accountants. It's a holiday for Christ's sake, one of your precious weeks off, why skimp?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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We went with the same TO this year. The quality has really dropped off. The chalet staff and rep were cheery and willing enough but the food  was of a much lower standard. Choice of cereal was Corn Flakes or Bran Flakes . The sausages (any meat content? - a frozen pack of about 100) were just about acceptable for breakfast but with mash and veg for dinner? No, not really. The frozen peas were obviously the ones Birds Eye (and everyone else) rejected. The midweek towel change didn't happen because the laundry delivery never came.
No, I didn't complain. I thanked and tipped the chalet staff as the stuff they cooked was as good as it could be, from seeing the ingredients. They had no idea about many things though, like the tea towels and oven gloves being a health hazard if used all week. When I emptied the dishwasher on chalet staff day off, I couldn't believe the state of the filter . No, cleaning it is not something you only do when the machine doesn't work anymore! And the "daily housekeeping", as per the brochure was none existent. No one entered the room all week, (not surprised, could hardly move in there, it was so small). Now, for what they got paid, I don't care. What I do care about is the fact that the TO bangs on about the level of service you can expect, so it's obviously a disappointment for its customers, and the chalet staff get it in the neck from them.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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You stay in a chalet and you take pot luck with how good the low-paid staff may be. And I guess this season, the food quality depends on how much money the TO was able to hedge in €€ before the £ went down. Bearing in mind how many holidays have been booked last minute, that may not have been enough. Best bet is to self-cater or go into a reasonable hotel, IMV.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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It's a holiday for Christ's sake, one of your precious weeks off, why skimp?
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That's quite right.
But if you have 5 weeks annual holiday, it's one every 10 weeks. That's really no so bad. And you might even start having difficulty paying top price for each and every one of them! 
That's pretty much what happened to some of my holidays. Some of them are "well-funded" and comfortable. Others are less well funded so with less expectation. Each result are acceptable, accordingly. So when I got good result on my "budget" trips, I tip more and probably repeat again next year. Maybe even bring friends with me! So there's the incentive for the establishment to out-perform expectation, be it TO or chalet or hotels.
Example, the small hotel in Jackson Hole cost not much. So I didn't expect much either. I was pleasently surprised it has a clean, HUGE room, well equiped and well replenished everyday with fresh towel, shampoo, coffee and condiment. Though there were a few minor imperfections, each was corrected promptly after only one complain. So I left proper tips each day, which brough even more goodies (chocolate, power bars). I told the management I was pleased and may bring others with me next season. In return, they gave me a discount retroactively on my room rate! Should I name the hotel?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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abc, Definately name them, we encourage people to both praise and name as well as shame and name, it is only by doing so that good hotels and opperators will win out over bad ones, that way everyone of your fellow snowheads benefits
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Local hotels and private chalets are usually owner-run by professionals with experience in hospitality. TO chalets are run by a bunch of kids whose main advantage is that they are cheap to employ. They generally have minimal customer service experience either as a provider or a paying guest (as you'd expect at the age of 20-odd), and it's not something you can teach effectively on a one-week training course. Both chalet staff and reps are generally paid less than about £300 a month, and the reps are liable to be disciplined and possibly sacked if they don't meet sales targets for ski packs and apres activities.
Lots of TO staff do a good job, but their working environment doesn't exactly encourge it.
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| tomstickland wrote: |
Yeah, I agree with what you're saying. Basically a never ending lazy cycle of uninspiring mediocrity.
Thinking back, I've been on 3 catered chalet holidays, plus 2 self booked, and 2 self catered.
The first one I had nothing to compare it with, it was OK, chalet host seemed fed up though. Second was amazing. Third was this one.
Maybe it's just pot luck that sometimes you encounter those who have a bit more personal pride and provide something good.
My previous 2 holidays have been privately run chalets, so maybe I've got used to them. They have a better incentive to be good.
Some companies/locations must be better than others though. |
Tom - Sorry it wasn't as good as you had hoped (and had enjoyed in the past...) but does show the difference between an owner-run property (their livelihoods depend on providing a service that clients will want to come back for) and many TO properties where everything (food budget, staff time and wages) are spread very thin. It's possible to have the elements you enjoyed - good skiing, a laugh with mates, a few beers - and still enjoy some comforts and a better experience.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Wed 25-03-09 21:30; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Had similar experiences in the past. Personally, I wouldnt touch a ski holiday to the french Alps from a big tour operator for £400 with a bargepole. Unless I had some insider information that I was really getting a good deal (reduced from original list price doesnt count), or I was happy to rough it for a week.
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I don't know if many people look on trip advisor before booking their ski holiday but I had a bit of a look on there abd there were some realy useful reviews. The hotel I'm going to averaged 5/5 woop woop! And I'm going on the cheap cos I'm young and skint 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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JDC, it doesn't seem that long ago since we had an excellent TO chalet holiday in the Les Arcs. Great chalet, ensuite rooms, and great food for just £249 a head, last minute Easter trip. There was even a swimming pool and a sauna, and the skiing was great too. I use trip adsvisor a lot for finding good overnight stops.
Not always possible to compare trip advisor reviews for chalets though. Certainly with tour ops they can vary greatly from season to season, it's good for hotels though. My tip would be to ask on SnowHeads before you book.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| sproggski wrote: |
| If, however, your chalet host is there for the skiing/boarding, they are more likely to have your interests at heart and want you to love the resort as much as they do. |
I worked for a major TO a few years ago (in LDA) ... thoroughly loved it and yes the costs per head obviously mean that it's never going to be the luxury end of the market. But I agree wholeheartedly that if you get some decent staff in your chalet then it can make the world of difference.
Having said that, I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole now as I dislike the mentality they have of trying to flog bar crawls (I can do that myself, thank you) and organising you like sheep. Plus I have a few (though not much) more quid in my pocket now and would rather treat myself for my hols....
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| D G Orf wrote: |
| abc, Definately name them, we encourage people to both praise and name as well as shame and name, it is only by doing so that good hotels and opperators will win out over bad ones, that way everyone of your fellow snowheads benefits |
It's the Antler Inn at Jackson Hole village. 1 block from the village square (as a good a location as you can get, close yet no noise). Considering the location, the price was very fair. So I was quite impressed by the size of room and good service.
I'm not a hotelier, so I may not know what I'm talking about. But it seems to me in the "mass-market" range, expectation is usually not very high. So it only take relatively little to impress the guest (e.g. replacing a burn out light bulb right away instead of ignoring it for half a week). That would go a long way in bringing in repeat business.
My own holidays are spend in both in high end and low end hotels depending on my mood and budget. But if I'm to bring back a group of mates with limited budget, a basic hotel with above average service would be the top of the list.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
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Basically a never ending lazy cycle of uninspiring mediocrity
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Yes, the reason why people got the cars they deserved in the 70s and 80s... if you go on buying this crap, we'll go on making it. The reason I always go DIY (and especially to Austria) is that, apart from sometimes paying a small deposit, you don't pay the full hotel bill until the day you leave. They have a good reason to make sure you're happy with everything throughout your stay. With tour ops you pay all up front and they have worked out that it is more profitable to handle a % of complaints than to serve better food etc. The Austrian model is holidays created by tourism professionals versus the UK tour op model that's created by accountants. It's a holiday for Christ's sake, one of your precious weeks off, why skimp? |
Could not agree more. Have been doing DIY for years now as any UK TO that we've gone through has been sub standard. Was ALMOST considering going to Le Viking in Morzine with Crystal for next year, until I read the reviews on tripadvisor, and was reminded of how poor these types of club hotels are. You can hardly even find one that accomdates a family of 5, yet the hotels that they use (in Austria anyway) do family apartments that hold 5 and 6 if you go direct.
My advice would be go direct, even if it does cost a little extra
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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abc, Ooh, I was thinking it might have been Snow King. Had a pretty good experience with them earlier this year - pleasantly cheap rooms, but pretty spacious and very well looked after. Maybe there is something to this idea of the American service industry after all...
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Poster: A snowHead
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| tomstickland wrote: |
It's all small stuff, but it added to the impression that someone, somewhere really didn't quite care enough.
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For £405 all up I'm not really surprised!
If you want everything to be perfect, you're better off staying well away from the budget TO market. If you pay those prices you have to expect things to be a bit ropey.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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uktrailmonster, not really. The micro-mini-MSB was £372, IIRC, which included flights, transfer and HB at quite a decent 3* hotel at Wengen. Our only grip was no wi-fi (we could do ungrateful). Even so, really good value for money on a late deal. Inghams was TO.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| achilles wrote: |
| The micro-mini-MSB |
was that the dress code?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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people who own and run there chalets i think that you will find in general that you will get far better service and far better value for money, plus most owner run chalets are a little older than the average ski bum student who wants to wee wee it up for the season and couldn't give two hoots about the clients !!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Bode Swiller,
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Sounds a bit similar to a recent holiday of ours, with Neilson. I should point out I've been with them a few times before and have been very happy, the quality of holiday and rep has previously been excellent. Unfortunately, this year we scraped the bottom of the barrel with the clueless rep we were given, and despite our hotel being very good the "performance" of the rep soured our holiday a touch. He didn't bother showing up for the welcome meeting at the start of the week and it went downhill from there with a number of other errors, mis-information, late delivery of lift passes, and other assorted cock-ups and general lack of care. Pretty much all other travellers with Neilson had separate compaints of their own about the resort staff, so it was a common theme.
I've written to complain to Neilson, but since the email receipt 5 days ago I've had no further contact, which is very disappointing, all I've asked for is an apology but it seems that may be too much.
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Unfortunately most of the big T/Os employs kids as staff, pay them peanuts and screw the chalet owners down to the bare minimum price for the season. The price you paid wasn't bad.....nobody pays the full T/O brochure price!
DIY is the way to go if you want quality.....but most times you pay for it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Was it skifrance?
I think we stayed in the same place a few years back and I remember non-existent reps and a slightly tardy chalet. Luckily our Chalet staff more than made up for it
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Last year we did ADH in a catered Chalet with Thompson, I think it was discounted from £ 750 to £ 600 including flights and Transfers, it was a boys week (middle aged) and the Hostess (sorry Chalet Operative) was stroppy, poorly trained, not brilliantly hygenic and the food was mediocre, however as a boys week we had other priorities so we took it in our stride ... the most amusing aspect was when we were asked to fill out an end of week questionaire, and that she insisted in seeing our responses first because her bonus was linked to customer satisfaction! Naturally we sealed the envelope. To be fair to the bint, we realised that she was probably being paid peanuts and left her a good tip.
This year we went with a private operator to a Chalet in Meribel, £ 550 excluding flights and transfers which probably took it to £ 750. However imo the £ 150 extra made a huge difference to the experience. The Chef and Chalet host were stunning, food was great, the chalet clean, their attitude superb.
Incidently the ADH Chalet didn't get discounted this year so it would have cost exactly the same.
In future I will go down the independent chalet operator route. I will probably drive next time to avoid sorting out expensive transfers which seem to be the main benefit of TO's. Also avoids arguing about boots at Chambery.
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FAQ
And my mate, who crawled under the desk to plug in his computer, found bread crumb that were left over from the previous guest!!! 