Ski Club 2.0 Home
Snow Reports
FAQFAQ

Mail for help.Help!!

Log in to snowHeads to make it MUCH better! Registration's totally free, of course, and makes snowHeads easier to use and to understand, gives better searching, filtering etc. as well as access to 'members only' forums, discounts and deals that U don't even know exist as a 'guest' user. (btw. 50,000+ snowHeads already know all this, making snowHeads the biggest, most active community of snow-heads in the UK, so you'll be in good company)..... When you register, you get our free weekly(-ish) snow report by email. It's rather good and not made up by tourist offices (or people that love the tourist office and want to marry it either)... We don't share your email address with anyone and we never send out any of those cheesy 'message from our partners' emails either. Anyway, snowHeads really is MUCH better when you're logged in - not least because you get to post your own messages complaining about things that annoy you like perhaps this banner which, incidentally, disappears when you log in :-)
Username:-
 Password:
Remember me:
durr, I forgot...
Or: Register
(to be a proper snow-head, all official-like!)

Interesting News regarding the Eurotest

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I don't think the article in the BASI news is too clear. I understand what it means is that if you pass the ISIA test, and you've done the other parts of the L4 then you get the ISIA card. You still need to pass the Eurotest to get your L4 ISTD (and hence be able to work in France etc).
latest report     
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
beanie1, Be able to work in France independently I think you mean! rolling eyes
snow conditions     
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
easiski, yes of course, thanks for the clarification.

Not really sure what the benefit of the ISIA card is?
snow report     
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
IIRC can't work in France at all even if you have completed all parts of L4 other than ET unless you also have test technique ie ET will entitle you to work in France only if you've also already completed all other parts of L4.
latest report     
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
skimottaret wrote:
did anyone clock that in the latest BASI news the scottish speed test was going to be run both as a EURO and ISIA test and a result in either would count for ISTD....


The Eurotest and ISIA test are different standards.

Eurotest is 18% of the world No 1.

ISIA test is 12.5% of the average of 2 opening times and 2 closing times of 2 skiers who have 50 FIS points +/- 10%. The ISIA standard is about 2 seconds slower than Eurotest on the same course. (course approx 50seconds)

Not really sure what ISIA gives you but as far as i am aware it is not recognised in France.
latest report     
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
beanie1, not clear is it. i was mistaken stating that either pass would count towards ISTD... I had a second read and it definitely said it was run as both an ISIA and ET. i can only guess that they had two sets of openers ??

doesnt seem clear if you pass all your L4 stuff and then the ISIA test will that get you an ISTD or if the Card is an ISTD "light" and as stewart woodward, says it probably isnt recognised within the Eurogroup...
snow conditions     
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
skimottaret,

Yes I guess they must have had two sets of openers.

No a pass in the ISIA test doesn’t get you an ISTD. If you have the other parts of the L4 you need for the ISIA card(which I think but am not certain is not all of them – I think it may just be the EMS, though never seen that in print anywhere) you’d be a BASI L3 with an ISIA card. I’ll try and find out if you need all of it.
snow conditions     
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
beanie1, not too bothered but it would be academically interesting to see if just the EMS and ISIA test pass would get you a card.. could be useful in teaching in southern hemisphere / japan perhaps... was more interested to see that BASI are actively supporting the ISIA test.
ski holidays     
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
beanie1, There are only 5 British skiers who are that close to 50 points, at least for the Eurotest you have the option of using more people as openers.
snow report     
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
rjs, do you know how many Eurotest openers GB has. i wouldnt have thought more than one or two? the ISIA test you have to have current FIS points 45 to 55 and that would limit the pool pretty dramatically. I am sure you are correct but am surprised to hear only 5 fall in that bracket.

The ISIA test rules dont stipulate that the points have to be in GS, would that still limit the skiers to 5?

EDIT: I see where rjs is going with this in that to be a ET opener you have to get calibrated at the beginning of the season, but there is no points stipulation so as rjs alludes to BASI could send any number of people to be official openers and get them calibrated each year irrespective if they are still actively racing.
ski holidays     
 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
I was wrong above, you do need the rest of the L4:

If you passed all L4 courses including the EMS, tech and teach, have not passed the Eurotest, but passed the ISIA test, you would be entitled to the ISIA card but not your BASI L4. However, the ISIA card is not recognized by Austria, France or Italy, so the holder would not be granted exemption to work in these countries currently.
latest report     
 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
stewart woodward wrote:
Eurotest is 18% of the world No 1.

ISIA test is 12.5% of the average of 2 opening times and 2 closing times of 2 skiers who have 50 FIS points +/- 10%. The ISIA standard is about 2 seconds slower than Eurotest on the same course. (course approx 50seconds).

Maybe my maths is wrong, but that doesn't stack up to me.

If we assume that averaging comes up with something like 50 points, 50 points is 50/880 * 100 times zero points, i.e. 5.68% off world No 1. 12.5% off this is 18.89% off world No1 (not 18.18% as you are scaling the 12.5 by a slower time). On a 50 second course this is 59.4 seconds. (FYI this also says the ISIA pass is equivalent of 166.25 points, ET = 158.4 points)

18% off world no 1 on a 50 second course is 59 seconds. Hence ISIA is only 0.4 secs off Eurotest. If this is wrong, what am I missing? Or is the supposition that the opereners will be skiiing a bit conservatively, so skiing about 1.5 seconds off their optimum pace? Major difference I see is the treatment of openers times - averaging makes it harder to fiddle the results, gets a bit more consistency, and less dependent on a single blistering run - but a GS race is also combined time (i.e. equivalent to average) of two runs anyway.

There are also 8 GBR males listed with 45-55 points, although there are symbols I don't really understand against 3 of them, which I assume mean they are points accrued in previous years and downgraded appropriately, or points obtained from a single race only? There are another 9 GBR males that beat the 45point threshold.
ski holidays     
 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
GrahamN, The symbols can also mean that they are injured, I only counted the ones with no loading.

Unless the Eurotest openers have current FIS points too then it is hard to compare the two systems.
ski holidays     
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
GrahamN, your maths are right but the ET GS isnt a combined time of your two runs, you only get one go at each course. they set two courses per day. The pass time is calculated from the fastest openers average of two runs on each course (post adjustment for their coefficient) (there can be more than one opener, 2 and sometimes four openers who get two runs each on a fresh course) . the key difference is you are competing against the fastest time of potentially four openers and start number is crucial. also a lot depends on the openers coefficient. If they had a bad day when calibrated at the beginning of the season they will be almost impossible to beat.

I was told by one opener that he was calibrated whilst nursing an injury and months later when opening an ET (when fit) was told to slow down his second run as no one would have passed....

If your bib 79 you stand no chance but they reverse start order for second race.... I think the 2 seconds difference is more typical rather than mathematical and is due to the averaging effect.

then again what do i know, stewart woodward, would be better placed to comment.
latest report     
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
slikedges, that's not true. You can work in France with a log book, you're classed as a stagiare that's all. However I can't see any difference in being paid less in Austria or Switzerland and being paid less in France! Just that in France they say you're not qualified which is a bit galling.

Listen guys - there are loads of brits working in France - get out of your fridges and go see! rolling eyes
latest report     
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
easiski, without Test Technique? Point I'm trying to make is it's my understanding that if you don't have your full ISTD (incld ET) you can't teach in France at all, unless you have the TT (in which case you can then work as a stagiere). Even if you have your ET but haven't completely finished other parts of ISTD you can't teach in France at all without your TT. I'm sure this is explicitly stated on the BASI website but feel free to correct me if I have it wrong. Difference then is that any lowly BASI L2 can get a job with any Austrian ski school who chooses to employ them without any further ado whilst in France you have to pass TT then register as a trainee in the French system at an approved Centre de Formation ski school=ESF. In Switzerland a BASI L2 qualification can get you employed but now you additionally have to show a minimum of ?7 ?14 days "qualifying" training a year as well.
snow conditions     
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
slikedges, I know a guy working as a stagiare in France who's not (yet )passed his TT (to put it in perspective he's an ex racer who has an exemption from the Eurotest - for his BASI exams, the French don't give exemtions). He does however know all the right people, I don't think his job was easy to get.
latest report     
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
slikedges, We are talking about the French here! Rules are not so slavishly followed as in the UK.

However there are Centre de Formations who are ESIs, not ESFs and both will take you on. You would have to train and pass the TT of course, but that really shouldn't be a problem for any ISIA aspiring skier. If you are with a school they can get round it - the inspectors only come out during the school hols! There's a russian girl in LDA who's a pretty crap skier TBH, but she's been working for the ESF for at least 2 years. They need the language skills.

You should not forget that TT is the French entry level. they can't even take a course until they've passed it, and TBH it doesn't look that hard from the ones I've seen. I have worked in Switzerland as a Grade 3 (level 2), and I can tell you that I didn't work much and I was paid about half what the swiss were, regardless of their quals. rolling eyes
snow report     
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
Quote:

They need the language skills.

So there's hope for me! Lifelong stagiaire here I come wink

Quote:

pass the TT of course, but that really shouldn't be a problem for any ISIA aspiring skier

I suspect most ISIA level skiers I've met (except those who've raced) wouldn't pass TT without some significant focussed training and a swig from the fountain of youth.

AIUI pay in Switz for BASI ISIA and below continues to be poor.
snow conditions     
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I have witnessed several skiers who already hold their ISIA tech who have failed the test technique more than once (and still not passed, just going for L4 and ET now). Without racing background training has to be very specific and focused to get to a pass. A GS type turn is not dissimilar to what you would produce free-skiing, this is not the case with a slalom turn, you also wouldnt be skiing around making the kind of movements required to ski verticalis fast.

Yes GS is still hard but you can get the base skills down a lot faster and begin to work on line choice tactics etc far earlier than with any SL training. Also the aspect of cross blocking gates is a big shock for a first time racer. There is a lot going on in SL and it is fairly far removed from general out of gate skiing.(its all still fresh in my mind from last June when I started and its a very steep learning curve!)
ski holidays     
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
As I said above I know a guy who's exempt from the speed test but failed the TT at his first attempt - so it can't be that easy?! I think GS and super G were his stronger disciplines, but even so he spent many years race training as a child.
snow report     
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
R555MAC, well said, spot on
snow report     
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
R555MAC, Absolutely, which was why the ET was made as a GS and not the SL that the French used to have as the Teste de Capacité. However there are race clubs all over the Uk at dry slopes and snowdomes and regular races, all of which are SLs, so there is much more opportunity for junior brit instructors to train in SL than in GS when they would deffo need to be on the mountain.

No-one is suggesting that you don't have to work hard to get to these levels, but then you don't get a degree if you've skipped all your lectures and haven't read any of the books do you?
latest report     
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Quote:

Also the aspect of cross blocking gates is a big shock for a first time racer.

Can we take the word 'cross' out of this, or am I alone in finding it unhelpful? http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/23190/how-to-cross-block-on-a-slalom-course
ski holidays     
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
beequin, for the first couple of sessions maybe, but decent skiers on modern slalom skis skiing the more offset slalom courses should get to a level very quickly (four or five sessions) whereby the 'cross-block' is the natural and most effective way of clearing most open gates. I agree though that a cross block should be a consequence of the line skied and not an aim in itself.
latest report     
 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Sideshow_Bob, Well said - I often see brit kids who are trying really hard to cross-block with inevitable rotation and loss of edge and line. They all claim to have been taught this by their dry slope/snowdome trainers. rolling eyes As you say, it should be a natural action and not a deliberate move. Clear the gate with whichever hand/arm is natural.
latest report     
 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
easiski, very good point, it is far more accessible. Dryslope technique does tend to differ slightly, but still good training none the less. The snowdomes are fantastic for training. Conditions are a bit controlled and predictable but the technique is still achievable obv.

Fair point on the cross block, but as said above for a competent skier you should have it pretty quick, maybe you wont be at the point where it is completely autonomous but after maybe 3 runs or even less anything other than a cross block would require the body to be rotated or in an awkward position. The cross block may have still been slightly awkward but the alternative would have been equally ineffective IMO. Obv this all differs with each skier, children trying to cross block is something you see a lot and they often just dont have the lateral movement to make this efficient and therefore need to turn the upper body, but at a very young age they shouldn't really spend much time in full size gates anyways, more stubbies/brushes and freeski fun/drills.
ski holidays     
 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
All of which brings us back to the point that officially at least you can't teach in France unless you have passed a timed slalom set at a moderately challenging level or you're fully qualified to the Euro Group's satisfaction. What I'd actually be interested in is just how many Brits there are working in France as stagiaires without TT. Anyone any idea?

stewart woodward did you need to do TT?
latest report     
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
slikedges, I expect that not many now if any at all. If you had been working with the ISIA and therefore Stagiere status pre TT you would hold it for 4 years. To refresh your status you would now need to update with a TT. The TT has been present for near over 3 years now I think (not 100% on this). My point is that if those stagieres wanted to reapply for their status then they would have to add the TT to gain it, or may not be given an extension as an option at all.

So I think, certainly if TT has been present for 4 season then there (theoretically) couldnt possibly be anybody working as a Stagiere without a TT. If it hasnt been present for 4 years yet than there could still be a few who do not yet need it, but as soon as the 4 year mark arrives from the intro of the TT I dont think anybody could be a Stagiere without it.

Hopefully someone can confirm this (or not for that matter)
snow conditions     
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
slikedges, apparently more than you think are working as stagiares before passing the TT - not officially allowed I believe but apparently it's done, it's all about who you know. I know one Brit in this position, he is the only British stagiare (still not passed the TT) in his ski school and as a native English speaker gets loads of work. He had connections to get the job however.
ski holidays     
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
R555MAC, the way in the front is clear, it's the side entrance I want to know more about Laughing

beanie1, intriguing - I'll see if I can tap some sources
snow report     
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
skimottaret, do you know how many Eurotest openers GB has?

There are currently four of us calibrated to open the Euro Test from GB. Alain Baxter, Jas Bruce, James Bennett and myself Craig Robinson.
ski holidays     
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
skimottaret wrote:
One potential good thing would be that now they are running the ISIA test it may force them to modify the Eurotest to make it more consistent, .


I thought i would bump this thread as according to JJC the Eurotest has been modified to take the average of the two fastest openers which i speculated may happen due to the threat of the ISIA speed test.

The news that the ET may become EU wide is very good in my view and it would be interesting from my point of view to here if there may be an age handicap....
ski holidays     
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
skimottaret, Dave Renouf commented on the age issue below:

"With regard to the ageist question this is something that we put to the EU commission a few years back and the reply was that for education there is no concession as the standards for a teacher of any sort should be the same whatever the age, despite there being a difference for gender. However on that point their opinion is that taking into account the difference in strength from male to female is within the understanding that the end result of capacity to teach is no different."
latest report     
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
beanie1 wrote:
skimottaret, Dave Renouf commented on the age issue below:

"With regard to the ageist question this is something that we put to the EU commission a few years back and the reply was that for education there is no concession as the standards for a teacher of any sort should be the same whatever the age, despite there being a difference for gender. However on that point their opinion is that taking into account the difference in strength from male to female is within the understanding that the end result of capacity to teach is no different."


The Age Discrimination Act is relativly new and therefor there is not much case law to base decisions on. The actual question asked would also have a bearing on the answer given. It would be helpfull if the question asked and the reply received was published here or on the BASI website.
snow report     
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
Gender is just one of many possible determinants of strength and fitness. There are lots of women who are stronger than the average man, nevertheless the distinction between the sexes in the Eurotest is a reasonable fudge to account for the usual situation. Age is just as powerful a determinant and the introduction of a handicap for age would be a similarly reasonable fudge to account for the differences between younger and older performers. Equally great a determinant is physical size, so say 4 height/weight categories would give a more accurate still reflection of skill level. The downside would then be needing some kind of composite index to work out who's passed!
ski holidays     
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
slikedges, Madeye-Smiley Madeye-Smiley

If age makes no difference why do we have masters races Puzzled Puzzled Puzzled
snow report     
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Mrs W wrote:
If age makes no difference why do we have masters races

For fun.

The majority of people doing them are instructors and race coaches, they could enter FIS Alpine races instead but then they would often be under pressure to look after their trainees, Masters races give them the opportunity to do a race without any kids.
snow conditions     
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
stewart woodward,
Quote:

The Age Discrimination Act is relativly new and therefor there is not much case law to base decisions on. The actual question asked would also have a bearing on the answer given. It would be helpfull if the question asked and the reply received was published here or on the BASI website.


I believe the question asked was if the fact there is no concession for age in the Eurotest is potentially in breach of the Age Discrimination Act. I'll ask Dave if he has details of the exact wording of the question asked.
latest report     
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
rjs wrote:
Mrs W wrote:
If age makes no difference why do we have masters races

For fun.

The majority of people doing them are instructors and race coaches, they could enter FIS Alpine races instead but then they would often be under pressure to look after their trainees, Masters races give them the opportunity to do a race without any kids.



and being slower than someone younger makes them uncompetitive Madeye-Smiley Toofy Grin
snow report     



Terms and conditions  Privacy Policy