 Poster: A snowHead
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I read this morning in (my mums copy of) the Daily Mail that a London Policeman fell to his death after skiing off a cliff somewhere in Alp d'Huez on the first day of his holiday. God only knows how he managed that but it's becoming all too common an occurence. Is it my imagination or do there seem to have been more deaths (of Brits maybe???) in ski resorts this season? Maybe cos of the extreme conditions we've seen this year?
Sympathies to his family anyway...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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SnowGod, I wonder that too. It does seem that way, but whether I'm more alert to these stories, or the papers have given them more prominence, or they are actually more frequent, it's difficult to tell.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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laundryman, maybe it's because of the increase in internet usage and the increase in popularity of forums like snowheads that we just get to know about more of them.... or maybe because of the increase in popularity in snowsports in the uk there are actually more brits killed and the exstreme snow conditions this year have accentuated that?????
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SnowGod, I doubt there have been more Brit skier-days this year than last - and I'm not sure that a bumper snow year (in the absence of numbers) is any more dangerous - and I was on the forum last year too! All the same, it could be distorted perception on my part or true but just a totally random bad year ... or true with some 'cause'.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I don't think the conditions have been particularly "extreme". It's hearing about them all on the internet, especially snowheads, I think.
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this year it seems to be either pissed and falls into river\ravine or not expierence off piste gets lost falls into river\ravine..not much in the way of avalanches that seem to be the normal ones highlighted i nthe press
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i know obertauern very well.. there are some great off pistes short blasts to be had.. I learnt them by dicking around off the edges of pistes, and this year watched lots of other people do the same.. there has been loads of snow, there is tons of powder.. people will follow other people asuming they know where they are going.. its the nature of the beast.. do we want out of bounds type stuff or will we accept the risks involved.. the same applies to walking back from the pub pissed .. its your call you make it..
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From an Austrian perspective ....
The number of ski related deaths here in Austria is up this year. High snowfall on a poor base and then temperature fluctuations have caught a few people out including a few exoerienced guides. There do seem to be more high speed crashes too with a couple of politicians being involved in high publicity cases. The helmet discussion is not restricted to snowheads, it's a heated discussion here in Austria too with areas considering and/or imposing mandantory helmets for children.
So you either go off piste and get hit by an avalanche, stay on piste and run the risk of a high speed crash or drunk in the bar and have a fatal fall on the way back to the chalet causing the police to shut the bar down for 2 weeks. Or like most snow-sliding people, have buckets of fun and avoid being a real casualty
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| Quote: |
So you either go off piste and get hit by an avalanche, stay on piste and run the risk of a high speed crash or drunk in the bar and have a fatal fall on the way back to the chalet causing the police to shut the bar down for 2 weeks.
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who says snowsports are dangerous eh? 
so u think that the increase in deaths is down to individuals behaving irresponsibly DB, ? I have to say that I seem to have dished out more dirty looks this season than in previous ones to out of control skiers and boarders... particularly those who insist on caning through nursery and beginner areas.... and u can't afford a lie in anymore if you want to make some tracks in the fresh stuff...
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SnowGod, I read the policeman died after losing control at high speed and falling into either a 10 foot ditch or a 100foot ravine depending on the paper! So now I don't trust the reports on whether he was going fast or lost control (or was a policeman) or anything. Reports seem to agree he died of a heart attack caused by a blow to the head (but don't mention either way on the helmet front). Two people I know have been killed skiing in recent years and the papers/websites got some of the facts wrong on both occasions, getting the facts accurate may not be easy but it is their job (or is their job to entertain).
Whatever happened condolences to his family.
On the subject of frequency of accidents it's a personal opinion but I just reckon it's down to reporting. I remenber being in Chamonix about 10 years ago when the death toll was more than a dozen in the week we were there. On speed - it annoys me when I see people skiing out of control, but again remember back to Austria some years ago when everyone seemed to be a teenage Germanic 6 foot plus skiing as if they were in a race (maybe my perception of speed has just changed) but it's no worse now, maybe better.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| SnowGod wrote: |
| so u think that the increase in deaths is down to individuals behaving irresponsibly DB, ? |
Carving skis have been around for a long time now (over 10years), suspect many people are at what I would call "the backseat carving stage". They can go fast and hang on but corrective action to avoid other people isn't their strongest point - I've been there too. Noticed a couple of Austrian friends who skied very old technique ca one week a year have started skiing a lot faster on carving skis but they have also started to have the occasional fall. Seems to be many more different types of equipment out there - short skis, GS skis, blades, snowboards etc along with faster lifts enabling more people to be on the slope at the same time. A lot of this equipment allows us to ski at speeds that would of won FIS races worldcup races a few decades ago. It's no wonder more fatal crashes are being seen in comparison to ca 20 years ago.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| midgetbiker wrote: |
| Reports seem to agree he died of a heart attack caused by a blow to the head |
Well I guess everyone dies of a heart attack, but I think this is the papers misinterpreting what the rescue services would have told the French journalist (probably the local stringer for the nearest town's newspaper) who then filed the report with the AFP. In the above case the rescue services told the press that when they got to the scene the man was in a state of cardio-vascular arrest - his heart and breathing had stopped. You may just as well say he died because his lungs stopped. I would suppose that what killed him was a severe head trauma not a heart attack which was a result of the severe blow to the head.
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You know it makes sense.
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SnowGod, I think there's just more reporting of it.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Very sad.
| CANV CANVINGTON wrote: |
| i know obertauern very well.. there are some great off pistes short blasts to be had.. . |
Also lots of very long ones (several longer than the famous "longest black in the world" and miles from the pistes).
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Poster: A snowHead
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More reporting and some incidents to well known snowheads & people with a media profile this season.
The US helmet industry was greatly helped by Sonny Bono & the Kennedy kid having an early demise.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Whatever happened it is all very sad.
midgetbiker, He was a Met Police officer who lived in St Albans.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I see Natasha Richardson's passed away overnight..... very sad..... I understand she was with an instructor on a beginner slope going slowly.... Jeeeees....
I was with a mate in Switzerland a couple of years ago and he had a fall on his first run on a nursery and shattered his shoulder... a body bag and 2 operations later he's retired from skiing..... could have been his head and he'd never have got the chance to reitre!
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| DB wrote: |
| SnowGod wrote: |
| so u think that the increase in deaths is down to individuals behaving irresponsibly DB, ? |
Carving skis have been around for a long time now (over 10years), suspect many people are at what I would call "the backseat carving stage". They can go fast and hang on but corrective action to avoid other people isn't their strongest point - I've been there too. Noticed a couple of Austrian friends who skied very old technique ca one week a year have started skiing a lot faster on carving skis but they have also started to have the occasional fall. Seems to be many more different types of equipment out there - short skis, GS skis, blades, snowboards etc along with faster lifts enabling more people to be on the slope at the same time. A lot of this equipment allows us to ski at speeds that would of won FIS races worldcup races a few decades ago. It's no wonder more fatal crashes are being seen in comparison to ca 20 years ago. |
Yeah, today's skis help think they are ski-gods - more stability and easier turning - thus probably encouraging many to ski faster than they would have on straights. The trouble is most of them do not have the technique to handle the situation when things go pear-shaped. Next time when on a lift, have a look at how many are skiing fast, but tail-swishing...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Yeah, today's skis help think they are ski-gods - more stability and easier turning - thus probably encouraging many to ski faster than they would have on straights. The trouble is most of them do not have the technique to handle the situation when things go pear-shaped. Next time when on a lift, have a look at how many are skiing fast, but tail-swishing...
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Absolutely agree... I don't think people spend enough time in lessons early in their careers so self teach and get into bad habits which are harder to fix later on.... much the same as golf in this repsect (or any number of other sports I would imagine) but with far more serious consequences!!!
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There are way more deaths on the slopes than we get to hear about - its not good for business if a resort gets known for deaths. I worked in Verbier for two seasons and there were a lot of deaths - the worst being a guy coming down the mountain and knocking out the last two kids of a class in ski school, he was fine, they were dead.
You're right, new skiis make is so much easier, the flip being people go faster. I've noticed on my new skiis how much more fun it is - its like being ski-born again - it freaked me out so much I went and bought a helmet last season.
Brits, I am afraid are the worst, unfit, tired and pissed on their first day and by the third, knackered sore and hungover do not make the best of judgements - on top of that they do not know the etiquette and in many cases do not have the skill or training - a week in ski school and you're off.
I reckon I can spot another Brit skier a mile off, very few have a good technique, not their fault, how can you have if you only practice once, twice a year - there is no substitute for a season a two under your belt, then it stays with you until your knees give up!
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| Quote: |
Brits, I am afraid are the worst, unfit, tired and pissed on their first day and by the third, knackered sore and hungover do not make the best of judgements
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Excellent sweeping generalisation there - thanks
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A sweeping generalisation to make a point, nothing personal Boris, I've done it myself.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Manyetta, I will agree with you that many of the worst offenders are Brits
First read of your post implied that that was Brits in general - having re-read it I see that's not what you meant
I took exception initially as a) as a cyclist and hockey player I'm pretty fit b) I've never skied p*ssed
With three young kids - I'll give you tired 
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I am with you - I have two boys that can pretty much ski what I can ski (12 and 11), an 18 month old and one on the way! Luckily my older boys are old enough to give us a break - a break that sounds like you would appreciate!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
Absolutely agree... I don't think people spend enough time in lessons early in their careers so self teach and get into bad habits which are harder to fix later on.... much the same as golf in this repsect (or any number of other sports I would imagine) but with far more serious consequences!!!
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I absolutely agree. Some of my friends who I have introduced to skiing ignore my advice to take instruction - they simply think that because they can get down blue and red runs (no doubt aided by modern ski technology rather than technique) then that is good enough for their few days on the slopes each year. I understand theire view to a certain degree, i.e. they are there to enjoy the few days and have no intention of becoming a racer, or even semi-proficient. But I think this is dangerous and have said so. I bet you don't find many people these days who have had more than 2 or 3 weeks of group lessons, as I say, once they have mastered the blues then they have reached their goal and are content at that. Each to their own I suppose.
Tragic story, my sympathies to all.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Took me a long time to realize .....
1) Skiing fast in the backseat on carving skis made me a poor offpiste skier - my skis just ran away from me off piste whereas I could get away with doing a "Bode Miller" on piste.
2) Carving step slopes aiming to control the speed rather than increase it does a lot more for your skiing. Keep in control and then increase the speed.
3) The best skier isn't always the one who gets to the bottom of the piste first. The better skiers are not racing down red runs inbetween families and learner skiers etc but racing gates or dropping down steep couloirs.
Nothing wrong in skiing fast but if you want to make yourself a better skiier then try racing gates (often set up for the public at 1 euro a time). Turning where you have to is a lot more difficult than just turning anywhere you can.
I'm a Brit but thankfully it's a long time since I've been recognized as one on skis.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Thu 19-03-09 11:54; edited 1 time in total
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Completely agree DB, nothing looks better than seeing someone in control, short or long turns in rhythm. If you are not the first down the mountain, who cares!
Who do you admire from the chair lift, the person in control - or the person going down as fast as he can?
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You know it makes sense.
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masmith, I have friends just the same and it's a disgrace that they're putting other peoples lives at risk. There are two guys who I actually refuse to go wkiing with anymore because I think they are too dangerous ( and I tell them exactly why I won't go with them t try and get them to change). When my wife learned to ski she went into ski school for three full weeks the first three times she went and then had private lessons every trip... these lessons are getting less and less frequent as she is now a highly competent and safe skier but she still has them after 10 weeks of skiing... probably 4 hours per week now, when we go to Zell, and always with the same instructor. You can tell just by looking at her that she ski's within her ability level and ski's safely with respect for the mountain, conditions, and other skiers about her. She's learned that the basis of sking is good technique and also learned what is safe to do on a mountain and what is not. I have to say it's been a pleasure watching her develop over the last few years and she enjoys the fact that she always recieves comments on her technique from similar level skiers. BUT it costs to have private lessons... big time... I dread to think how much we've spent... in my view it was worth it but we are fortunate enough to be able to afford it.... many people scrimp and save for their one week a year ski trip and they realistically have the choice of ski school or nothing... i appreciate that ski school can be dull and slow as the group can only go as quickly as its least effective member, but I do wish that there people would at least spend the cost of ski school on say 3 hours private tuition....
It amazing that you need tests and lessons to ride a motorbike but anyone can click into a pair of ski's and hurtle off at 50+mph with no training whatsoever if they are that way inclined. It is people who are that way inclined who cause the most accidents and injuries IMHO, but there is also the genuine accident down to human error or equipment failure which can happen. It sounds like this is what happened to poor natasha richardson and others....
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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SnowGod, too right. One friend I am thinking of now, is going away with our group in April. She has been once before and took 2 private lessons, shared with AN Other beginner. She had the chance to join 2 x AN others of similar abaility for more private lessons this year but turned it down. As there were 3 people, all of a very similar ability, they could have shared 3 x 2.5 hr private lessons for the roughly the same price as a weeks worth of group lessons. Do they listen to my 20+ years of experience, in which I try to explain this is much better value and they will gain soooooooo much more from the 3 lessons ? Do they f**k. At which point, one gives up !
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Poster: A snowHead
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[quote="SnowGod"]
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Absolutely agree... I don't think people spend enough time in lessons early in their careers so self teach and get into bad habits which are harder to fix later on.... |
With you on this one. I've seen so many people on threads here and out in the wild who reckon that 4 hours of tuition (or sometimes less) is enough to equip them for anything the mountain can throw at them. When I was learning to ride, i'd take classes pretty much every day of my holiday for my first 2 trips - and certainally didn't consider myself a 'good' boarder until a good while after that.
What are peoples opinions of the The "Learn to Ski/Board in-a-day" packages on offer at the UK fridges? My very first lessons were at Tam back in the late 90's (I was dreadful) - I'm wondering if they give a false sense of security, confidence and ability when people hit the 'real' hill for the first time, the "I've Done This At MK(etc) So Bring On The Couloirs!"
But then perhaps i'm just getting a bit too old and farty these days...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Ok, so we've pretty much arrived at a new question here.... why don't more skiers take more lessons?
Is the cost perceived to be too high? Is it cos they think they're better than they are? Is it cos they don't like the pace of instruction? Is it cos they want to ski with their mates? Is it cos they're just stupid? Is it cos of peer pressure - needing lessons is seen as an inadequacy? Is it because they just don't realise how important good technique is? Is it the "silly" pole waving and up down exercises the instructors make them do?....
I've been skiing for 21 years, admittedly with an 8 year break after I first learnt and had done 3 weeks, and I STILL take lessons every year.... cos I want good technique and I want to be able to ski anywhere in any conditions. I use the same instructor all the time now as I've found this helped me... I don't have lessons every trip, but only on my annual trip to Zell am See. My "lessons" now are more advanced and usually consist of a day or two's ski touring where I learn mountain craft, off piste and touring techiques etc, but I still have them, and I plan to continue to doing so until I am forced to stop skiing altogether, probably due to my knees giving up!!! Part of me accepts that I wasn't brought up on snow and can only ski for 3-4 weeks a season so I'm highly unlikely to ever be able to "ski like a local" but another part of me strives to ski like a local and common sense tells me that more lessons is the only way to get close to this...
What do other people think?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Are lessons a universal panacea compared to a bit of self awareness and personal responsibility? While there re great instructors they can't be with pupils 100% of the time and even then accidents can happen walking across the car park or getting off the bus. A "respected" snowhead had the biggest tumble I'd seen him have walking into a ski shop, shortly before being patronised by a French madame in a fur coat telling him he needed to be careful as ski boots were slippy on ice This with a lot of bad luck could have been a "Natasha".
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Ironically Natasha was taking a ski lesson with an instructor when she fell. It's a free world but it appears to be a quirk of the British culture that many Brits often spend money on material things people will see rather than less tangible things that will improve safety or a skill. (e.g. clothes and skis rather than ski lessons, offpiste safety equiment/courses & helmets. SUV's with M&S tyres but winter tyres are too expensive).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| Are lessons a universal panacea compared to a bit of self awareness and personal responsibility? |
My view is that taking lessons and taking the time to learn your craft are part of the personal responsibility you take to keep yourself safe and not endangering those around you.
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| Quote: |
many Brits often spend money on material things people will see rather than less tangible things that will improve safety or a skill. (e.g. clothes and skis rather than ski lessons, offpiste safety equiment/courses & helmets. SUV's with M&S tyres but winter tyres are too expensive).
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Yep... too true
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accidents can happen walking across the car park or getting off the bus.
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There are accidents which are just that and accidents which can be avoided by skiers having better technique and more mountain / safety awareness gained from more lessons....
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SnowGod, absolutely!! Being hit by an out of control skier who can't be bothered to take lessons, could cost someone their life or cause permanent disability . Fortunately  it only cost my husband a broken neck, a week in hospital having emergency surgery, and 8 weeks on the sick with a lot of physiotherapy and pain relief. I am lucky he is still with us and walking after his hit and run accident, others this season haven't been so fortunate. We will only have missed a whole seasons skiing.
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Playing Devil's advocate I'd say that the British holiday pattern is as much to blame as a blank refusal to take lessons for Brits. One week skiing a year, on average at a peak time is vastly different to say the North American model when people take multiple weekend trips which allow for progressive building of ability over the season. It seems that the worst skiers in North America , beyond deluded Brits such as me, are their domestic tourists who take 1 week's holiday a year and have an all the gear, no idea hard partying attitude. Its hard to verify this this however as there may be differential factors such as weekend trippers have grown up doing it as they are semi-local.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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fatbob, what about the Dutch, Belgians, Danes and a large proportion of the Germans????? All have a 1 week a year ski holiday pattern.... maybe they start younger than we do cos they drive to resort rather than fly and many are happy to stay down the valley in cheaper accommodation which they can drive to the slopes from each day so maybe the cost is not so prohibitive for them???
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FAQ
Met one of those types in the place I staying a few weeks ago - knew it all and knew how to instruct as well, he was even kind enough to take his girlfriend out for her first ski trip and was giving her the benefit of his knowledge and ability ... I saw them the second night and he had his arm in a sling (broke something) and she could hardly walk she was limping so badly! 