 Poster: A snowHead
|
I was doing a half day off piste day in Tignes on Friday when our guide set off a nice slide at the top of the Chardonnet Couloir in bad weather. It was amazing to watch the snow flowing like a broken river only ten feet from our boots as we waited just below the ridge edge. The winds were fairly brisk and a lot of snow was coming down so the top of the couloir was loaded and he was carried out of sight and into the gully. The slide was approx 8m wide at the top and widened out to a length of 50 - 70m or so.
He got tumbled a bit and lost a pole but cleared the line for the rest of us; although the debris was a little heavy to turn in. There were two other guides there ready to help him if he needed assistance and he knew that the line opened out below onto more stable snow. Once below the narrows it was lovely fast turns in knee deep powder... the first time that I have experienced such bliss. We then headed to the forests above la Daille and followed the line though the trees and underneath the gondolier... a little steeper than I am used to but at least my attempts at drop offs are resulting in more comfortable crashes 
What a fantastic day out and a big recommendation to the guys and gals at Evolution2.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 15-03-09 21:15; edited 2 times in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Did he tell you it might slide before he dropped in?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
rob@rar, He put us all in a safe area and went down to look at the slope and confer with the guide who was already lower down. With the high winds communication was rather difficult so it was more of a hand signal situation. Although he hadn't warned us explicitly we were not surprised that the top went. All six of us in the group had previous experience of off piste so we weren't worried by it. The slide actually came from above us as he triggered the lower slab.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
We had two days in powder in VdI on Thursday & Friday last week, but the light was pretty flat and visibility poor. It snowed pretty much cosntantly for nearly three days, you jammy git.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
hyweljenkins, Agreed, the vis was terrible for the last 3 days, made the forest skiing great fun though. Didn't half get me used to skiing by feel
It really does pay dividends to study how the wind is laying down the snow as every slide I saw was either due to wind loading or the result of south facing slopes catching the sun late afternoon. I was heading off on my own a bit during that week (only near the pistes and in good weather) and some places I just turned straight round and side stepped back up... the way the snow was piling up just didn't feel safe. Even a tiny risk is too much in my opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Sounds good to me...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Scarpa, who was guiding you on that day?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
PP, It was a chap called Phillip from Evolution2. He was pretty spot on with his advice and observations and his choices included not going to certain places we had intended due to the snow stability and visibility. As I mentioned above, it was a localised load of snow in the entrance (with stable slopes close below) which he cleared for us after putting us in a safe area. Very impressive to watch 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Scarpa, So, if I'm understanding this correctly, the guy set off the avalanche on purpose and it took him away, and he was happy with this 
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
Megamum, It only carried him a short way... I wouldn't say he was perfectly happy with it though He was checking out the stability along with the guides from the other 2 parties.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
Surely this can't be right? I've never known a guide to do this before, and i've skied with a lot of guides. From your description it sounds like more luck than judgement that things turned out ok.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Bloody awful jackets too. Perhaps it was their 'volume' that set off the avalance 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
GreyCat, don't be too surprised. That's the only method of avalanche control they use in La Grave. We were up there once on a level 4 day and in the cablecar on the way up our guide was pointing out which slides he'd set off on their early morning security patrol.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
There was a big avalanche in the Savoie 2 days ago which killed 4 people. One of whom was a kid from here. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
Interesting. What happened to roping off before setting out an avy?
easiski,
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Just read this, and find it a bit weird too - is this "guide" actually a UIAGM Guide ?
I've been with a fair number of guides over the years who would find this rather strange behaviour to say the least, and if he was UIAGM then he should be somewhat embarassed by the whole event and you posting it for all the world to see !
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Hmmmm... maybe he was caught by surprise then. But from what I could see from my limited vantage point there was a localised build up of fresh loose snow in the entrance narrows. With 3 guides conferring and then taking a closer look my assumption was that they knew that any small slide at the top would stop as soon as it left the steep section. This is one of the easiest couloirs in Tignes and these people must ski it almost every day. The slope below consisted of a very stable base with light powder on top which showed no tendency to slide at all. If you look at a lot of footage of freeride and off piste there are multiple small slides being set off left, right and centre.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
I'm sure that there were no guides. Surely not a Philip from Evo2, it must have been ski teachers...........
Anyway, kicking off a slide, and getting trapped in it is not something to be to proud of.
As is calling yourself a guide when you're not.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
I'm glad I'm not the only person utterly horrified by this.
I'm also positive that if I were out with a guide who deliberately took me in to an avalanche zone I'd be trying to find my "happy place".  A guide is there to keep me SAFE!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
rade, You may well be right. I had jumped in to join a group doing an off piste day at the last minute. In a lot of resorts instructors can take groups though the 'safer' (ahem) areas of the resort. I wasn't using the term guide to mean a qualified mountain guide, just the person guiding us though the terrain.
It does all prove one point though... make your own assessments and do not be afraid to insist on turning back if you do not feel happy. I had skied the slopes below previously in the week and they were well tracked out and consolidated.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Alexandra wrote: |
I'm glad I'm not the only person utterly horrified by this.
I'm also positive that if I were out with a guide who deliberately took me in to an avalanche zone I'd be trying to find my "happy place". A guide is there to keep me SAFE! |
I'd echo your comments though i wouldn't necessarily be worried about being in a potential avalanche zone per sae as that's part of the risk of off piste skiing. More the fact the guide seemed to deliberately drop in & get himself avalanched? Did he not think to cut the slope first/have a bounce up & down on skis at the top to check the stability of the slope before dropping in. Just seems like highly dubious practice for a "guide"?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
frank4short, I think that he did have a good look there. It was a strange situation in that there was only the top short section that had all the powder piled up. He didn't just drop straight in... all the instuctors/off piste guides had a good conflab and looked at the slope together. He was gradually testing the new snow on top of the hard base but nothing happened until he tried to do a turn in it and pushed some of the covering downwards. I believe that he knew that even in the worst case senario it would only be a small slide of light snow which would stop quickly.
As the above poster put it... we were all heading off piste in order to take advantage of the lovely fresh powder. You simply can't do that without some element of risk. People who think that hiring or booking a third party will somehow make it all safe are being somewhat deluded.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Scarpa, was it a single point slide or slab?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
rob@rar, It was a loose, dry single point slide (I am no expert but trying to describe what I saw) but triggered from below (30m approx). Although the whole mass moved as one it started narrow at the top and made the classic fan shape. There was very little compression and solidification of the resulting debris.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
Scarpa, OK. I'v done something similar, unintentionally and much to the chagrin of the guys I was skiing with, and I think it's a very different scenario to getting into a zone which you think might be slab loaded in order to clear the route.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
rob@rar, It could possibly be classed as a very, very soft slab. The snow was really loose and not bonded into any sort of layer. I think that you are correct in that a proper wind deposited slab that had built up previously would be a different matter. I wouldn't have liked to have had to make the judgement for others... but it's taught me more about a snow condition which I hadn't had a great deal of experience of.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
In my opinion -luck was on your side this time - I am not so sure you fully recognise this. I have just come back from Italy and the avalanche risk has been 4/5 all week. Better to be safe and ski another day - can be a bit frustrating but you can have good fun between the pistes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
snowbandit, Well maybe luck was on the guys side. We were off to the side watching them testing the snow.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
snowbandit, Risk factor is of very little use when dealing with specific localities. Even a couple of hundred metres can make a huge difference. The posted level had changed from 2/5 to 3/5 on the day I was talking about so the risk was increasing. I am far from an expert but have 20 yrs experience of winter climbing in Wales, Scotland, the Alps and the Canadian Rockies and have often abandoned routes due to the perceived risk. Don't worry... I value my scrawny neck too much to take excessive risks
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 15-03-09 22:54; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| snowbandit wrote: |
| but you can have good fun between the pistes. |
Is that guaranteed safe when avy risk is 4 or 5?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Scarpa wrote: |
I think that he did have a good look there. It was a strange situation in that there was only the top short section that had all the powder piled up. He didn't just drop straight in... all the instuctors/off piste guides had a good conflab and looked at the slope together. He was gradually testing the new snow on top of the hard base but nothing happened until he tried to do a turn in it and pushed some of the covering downwards. I believe that he knew that even in the worst case senario it would only be a small slide of light snow which would stop quickly.
|
I'm in no disagreement over the comment about the inherant danger involved when skiing in certain conditions. However see my comments re: cutting the slope. If your guide was competant at what he does he should have known how to cut a slope e.g. using certain actions safely release the slide prior to skiing it. That's where my main failing is with what you've described not the fact you were lead into potentially hazardous terrain that he did so in a manner where there were other alternatives before skiing it to check it. Such a lapse in judgement would lead me to question his suitability as a guide.
Oh & there's no such thing as a safe avalanche be it big, small or medium.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
frank4short, Fully agree there fella. I don't think that he was an actual mountain guide... rather an instructor leading off piste groups. But maybe he made a lapse, maybe the conditions caught him out. It's an interesting situation which has produced some debate and hopefully will make people think more before setting off.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
Oh & out of curiosity can you tell me where you were in tignes? I'm crap with names but i've spent several weeks skiing in tignes & skied most of what i could in that time. If i knew where you were might clarify matters a little.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
It was to the right of the top and right of the Grattalu lift. Up from Merles. On the map look to the right of the le Spot green area towards the Aiguille du Chardonnet. Rejoins piste towards the bottom of the Merles chair.
Tignes piste map
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 16-03-09 1:12; edited 2 times in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Scarpa, which gully did you go into the basin from. Did you have a little climb to get in, or mainly a traverse?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mosha Marc, A small climb up and right from the Grattalu chair. Chardonnet has a double entrance; we took the easier first one. You can also cut into the basin at a lower level from the blue run alongside the Merles chair. Either keep high and traverse across the slope or a little lower through a narrows above an often moguled area which is much safer. Type of thing you can do on your own if conditions are right.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Scarpa, If you have super-long links, please either use tinyurl or similar to get a shorter version, or enclose it in Anchor tags with a short title, so that it doesn't wreck the page width.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Whoops.... didn't notice it was a long one. All sorted now.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
