 Poster: A snowHead
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... surname.
Jeremy Skidmore on Skiing or snowboarding - which is best? [Telegraph.co.uk] The article, based on a trip to St Anton, concludes:
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| After five days on skis, I felt I was back to my pre-boarding days, thanks in part to being able to practise on uncrowded runs. But I was dying to give it a go on a board and swapped over on the final day. Hurtling down the mountain, it felt great to be back. I loved skiing in St Anton, but I'm a boarder at heart. |
So ... I don't think he really answers the question (!) but maybe we can help.
Speaking impartially, I'd say that skiing is best and (unlike snowboarding) it has a 4000-year history based on ergonomics. Give it another decade and I'd be surprised if snowboarding isn't history (obviously there will always be snowboarders). [I wrote the first article on snowboarding in the UK in 1978 and imported the first 20 boards into the country].
Split boards are being tried again, to get over the big technical hassles in snowboarding, but I don't see them catching on in a big way. Interestingly, there was a passing phase when boarders put down really impressive carves, but then ski designers returned to the geometry and emulated the sidecut. It has been a very interesting 30 years of competition between the two sports.
Anyone believe that snowboarding has a 'developmental future'?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well there is no "best", is there? It's wholly dependent on what you enjoy most.
I had never skied until last September, and I do enjoy it. And I obviously have a long way to go with my skiing! But boarding is sooo much nicer in the powder. I'm quite happy skiing off piste, but on a couple of big powder days recently, I really missed that laid-back feeling - the long, surfy curves, leaning over and dragging a hand.... I know you can do it to an extent on skis, but I just prefer the feeling on a board by a long way.
I don't see the sports as competitive, but complimentary. I thought that was pretty much the majority view these days? I suppose in terms of manufacturers, they are competitive...
I can think of loads of things with a long history that are rubbish  Not that skiing is, but you could argue that snowboards are an evolutionary branch of it.
If you're not touring, the technical hassles are pretty much non-existent - the odd flat spot, I suppose.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Mon 2-03-09 16:28; edited 4 times in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Well I like Skiing....and I like snowboarding...But which one's best???
Only one way to find out.........FIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!
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| Quote: |
Speaking impartially, I'd say that skiing is best and (unlike snowboarding) it has a 4000-year history based on ergonomics.
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not sure that there's anything ergonomic about modern ski boots. They're good for getting you down a slope when a mega-buck machine has pulled you up it in the first place, though.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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firebug, those are very interesting points. As well as importing those (20) snowboards in the late 1970s, I also imported 10 of the world's first monoskis - also revolutionary at the time. I spent 3 years skiing nothing but monoskis and got the same sensation you describe in the powder. The original snow monoski - the Bahne Single Ski - was designed by a US champion surfer (Mike Doyle), before snowboarding was considered to be a viable design solution, but Doyle wanted to simulate the effect of surfing water/waves in big spaces.
I'd agree that surfing (mono or snowboard) the powder on a single deck is a beautiful - and powerful - experience, and superior to two skis. But snowboards have big negatives on groomed snow and hardpack/ice, or for walking/traversing out of situations. As do monoskis and fat skis.
Ultimately, most people can only carry one piece of kit to their destination.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Mon 2-03-09 16:29; edited 2 times in total
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| Quote: |
| Anyone believe that snowboarding has a 'developmental future'? |
What a ghastly piece of jargon.
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It's a perfectly valid and elegant adjective.
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But for the huge majority of people, who aren't going to do much touring beyond a few hikes, those aren't really going to be issues. Snowboards are fine on groomed snow anyway. On ice it's no fun at all, I agree, but then if the pistes are solid ice on your holiday no-one will be having a great time.
I find that most people I know who want to learn to ski or board just prefer one or the other. They just want to get to the mountain and have some fun, and generally have an immediate preference for either going forward or sideways, depending on previous sports and what they aspire to do.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Mon 2-03-09 16:47; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Did anyone else notice that Mr Goldsmith imported the first 20 snowboards into the country?
We have reason to be very grateful to Mr Goldsmith (even if we weren't already).
He imported the first 20 snowboards into the country.
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David Goldsmith,
Hasn't snowboarding, in how long it's been around (for more than just a few specialists) and how popular it is, already gone way past the likes of monoski and some other 80s contraptions?
From my (far from expert) point of view, it would seem the snowbaording "boom" is what has caused the ski industry to re-invent itself and develop carvers, fat skis and twin tips among other novelties and transformations...
The numbers of snowboarders does seem to have stabilised as skis have caught up with its fun side/popular fashionable aspects. However, because it is also easier to learn (to start with) it still attracts a lot of people.
Skiing will always be the number one (by numbers) way of getting down a mountain...It does not mean anything else will just be a passing fashion.. I think snowbaording is now mature enough to remain more than just a niche sport...Hence why people still try and overcome its technical limitations..
And as to which is best...it's a bit like the chicken and the egg...you can talk at length without ever agreeing on a solution..
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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- I opted for some skis of modest length. A previous instructor had always advised me: "Go as low as your ego will allow you."
- Passed on the race skis
You can see why he prefers boards - he's going for tiny little skis and/or race planks 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| dr schuss wrote: |
| We have reason to be very grateful to Mr Goldsmith (even if we weren't already). |
Thank you, my son.
| dr schuss wrote: |
| Did anyone else notice that Mr Goldsmith imported the first 20 snowboards into the country? |
My bank manager, unfortunately.
A friend (who began Nevica at the same time) called me "an importer of obscure and unsaleable ski products"
Skateboarding - [edit/correction: Snowboarding] didn't take off at all until 1985, so I was about 7 years ahead of the money.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Tue 3-03-09 18:13; edited 1 time in total
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
Split boards are being tried again, to get over the big technical hassles in snowboarding, but I don't see them catching on in a big way. Interestingly, there was a passing phase when boarders put down really impressive carves, but then ski designers returned to the geometry and emulated the sidecut. It has been a very interesting 30 years of competition between the two sports.
Anyone believe that snowboarding has a 'developmental future'? |
In 16 years of boarding, I have never even seen a picture of a split board, let alone seen one being used. To cut a board in half would destroy its strength and flex when it was reconnected so to use such a board is to totally miss the point of snowboarding, in the first place. To say split boards are being tried again is like saying that sidecars are being tried again to get around the big technical hassles in motorcycling. Once you understand the point of doing it, there are no technical hassles but some skiers never will understand this point. Those of us that do both see each for their best use. If you can board, you would never wear skis on a powder day again but that's not a technical hassle, its just that there are better ways to enjoy the day.
Without boarding, its unlikely that we would have carving skis now and as for the future of boarding... we are just starting to see reverse camber boards, although I suspect these will be a fad. What we haven't seen and what will revolutionise boarding, is boards that are not a uniform cross section. Soft, flexible edge rails that can soak up surface texture changes but an ultra stiff core that will allow high speed control yet can twist to allow differing edge bite front to rear - sound interesting? Boarding and skiing both have new materials to use and new profiles to incorporate. Its not over yet.
If the snow is soft or its powder, I'll ride a board. If its really icy, I used to ski but now would rather spend the day doing something else.
Water skiing and wake boarding? Roller skating and skate boarding?
Perhaps snowboarding is the future development of skiing.
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You know it makes sense.
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| bar shaker wrote: |
| In 16 years of boarding, I have never even seen a picture of a split board, let alone seen one being used. |
Well, try watching yesterday's episode of High Altitude on BBC i-player! Ed Leigh had one with skins on (only going up, obviously ).
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Yet another skier vs boarder thread... ugh...
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Poster: A snowHead
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| skiking4 wrote: |
| Yet another skier vs boarder thread... ugh... |
I do both, so its not a contest in my book.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| bar shaker wrote: |
| Yet another skier vs boarder thread... ugh... |
Hopefully not. This one has the prehistoric and historic overtones.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| bar shaker wrote: |
In 16 years of boarding, I have never even seen a picture of a split board, let alone seen one being used. |
Jeeees where have you been ?
http://www.splitboard.com/site/Splitboard_Home/Splitboard_Home.html
Splitboards are fine to ride, though I don't ride them but a few of my mates do, hassle is they are sh*t for skinning up in the tracks of skiers - if you're touring in spring conditions first thing in the morning and doing a cold face that has not warmed up, having to use crampons on them and using soft boots it's a fecking nightmare.................they are fine skinning in powder, but when you're hiking you tend to come across different snow pack conditions........
Then when you've made the summit and it's blowing F6 with a wind chill of minus 25 it's another fecking nightmare putting the board back together as you have to use bare hands to get all the pins etc into place.
That's why I went the approach ski route, but that has problems as well, but not as bad as splits.......hence now I'm back on skis for touring.
I ski and board depending on the mountain and conditions. If it's powder then no contest - this year in Alpe D'Huez http://www.snowheads.co.uk/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=35861&start=40 I talked a mate of mine who is a UIAGM Guide to get on a board as we had more boarders than skiers in the group - and he loved those couple of days.
I'm going out for 5 weeks this Friday, locating myself in Serre Ch, driving out means we can take all the toys - I might actually post a picture of the van loaded up 
Last count 5 boards, three pairs of skis ( though picking another pair up in La Grave) and around 8 pairs of boots - for me that's four pairs - Downhill, Alpine Touring, my old soft Alpine touring which I use on my board / approach ski setup and finally a pair of soft boots - wife three pairs of boots and then my daughters will be coming out!
And finally a mate of mine imports ice hockey equipment into the UK - he doesn't actually skate but he knows awful lot about it
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| Skateboarding didn't take off at all until 1985, so I was about 7 years ahead of the money. |
Skateboarding's first wave was in the sixties in the states but it's popularity waned before jumping the pond. It was massive in the UK in the late 70's though. As a child I coveted a skateboard as early as '76 and 2 or 3 years later 'everyone' was on them. It was the era of the Dog Town boys, of kryptonics and of skate parks cropping up in just about every major town - skateboarding's first golden era.
Perhaps you were actually a year or two behind the money?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I've always been a skier at heart but I did give boarding a month's trial when I did a full season. I found it quite easy to progress but fell over a lot more (I hardly ever fall on skis). That coupled with the annoyance of flat bits, using lifts and not being able to just stand there comfortably meant that I was more than happy to swap the board back for skis. I'm glad I tried it, but I know where my heart lies...
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David Goldsmith, gota question the validity of someone who doesn't know UK skate history. Particularly in that most snowboarders in late 70s were skaters.
And skaters in 79 til 86 were so low that they knew each other (skate with the undead).
You may have wrote an article and may have imported some boards , but not the first. By 78 there was already a snowboard/skate cross over established down south.
tux
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I remember when I first saw snowboards, must have been early 80s. They had a little lead at the tip that the rider held on to...
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A certain Mr Hardy writing in the The Times also forecast the demise of the snowboarding 'fad' some time, about 10 years. How wrong did he get it.
Snowboarding is around to stay.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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tuxpoo, I was technical editor of Skateboard! magazine when it was established by Felix Dennis in (memory) about 1977/8. Not quite clear of the point you're making. It's correct that people were experimenting with primitive snowboards around that time. The Winterstick - which is the board I imported - was the first serious attempt at engineering a deck that would surf in powder.
queen bodecia, that was the Snurfer, which preceded all other snowboards in terms of a commercially available product. As you say, you had to pull up a leash connected to the tip to make it work, so it was not a hands-free snowboard in the tradition of surfing/skating.
admin, "skateboarding" was a typo for "snowboarding" in the post quoted. Apologies. I've corrected that.
You're right that the original 'clay wheels' of the first skateboards well preceded the urethane wheels that revolutionised the sport in the mid-seventies (the Cadillac wheel, made by Bahne - who also developed their Single Ski monoski - was I think the first mass-produced urethane wheel)
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| 666 wrote: |
| Snowboarding is around to stay. |
I agree, but will it evolve to challenge skiing again in technical terms? (floating, carving, other aspects of performance) - I'd put money on snowboarding not achieving that.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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David Goldsmith, what are you going on about, some people ski whilst others board why do they have to compete?????
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I think our David Goldsmith has been busy googling this afternoon
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There'int 'arf some bollux spouted about the difference 'twix board and ski. It's only when we stray away from nice soft pistes and a couple of cm of hero snow does it matter a dam. On hard, crisp, cord, you can't beat a pair of sharp edges, good angulation and terminal velocity. At the other end in thigh deep powder the complete oneness of you and your board is a zen experience that is just not possible with skis, no matter how wide underfoot.
Neither is better than the other and that's why both will survive and perhaps more of us will be happy riding either . . .
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You know it makes sense.
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romeowner, well one thing that could be 'gone on about' is the issue of fixed foot positions.
One of the essential virtues of the skateboard or surfboard, in terms of control and expression, is the freedom of the skater or surfer to move feet around.
Dimitrije Milovich, who invented and refined the design of the Winterstick for well over half a decade, did not use it with fixed bindings. The board had an elasticated strap running from tip to tail, under which your feet hooked. So the feet could be moved around a bit.
I took the view, after a couple of years of monoskiing, that the concept would benefit hugely from bindings on tracks, so that the upper foot could be advanced in the traverse (as with conventional skis). The forced 'square on' fixed positions of boots on a mono is a problem.
If there's one area ripe for development, it is allowing variable foot positions.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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David you really do talk some rubbish. At 13, in 1976 I lived in Romford. Hoards of us used to meet up on Sunday mornings to ride the shopping precinct and subways on skateboards. Some were expensive commercial boards, some were home made jobs made with skates stolen from King Georges park skating rink.
As for moving your feet around like a surfer, a surf board needs lots of volume to float/plane and this requires lots of edge pressure to turn. Such foot movement is just not needed on a snowboard.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
If there's one area ripe for development, it is allowing variable foot positions. |
I can't help but thinking that you're just Googling to come up with all this information and that you were never importing etc etc..................because if you actually knew your stuff, you'd know that Burton have introduced (mainstream avaiable in Snow n'Rock etc) a system whereby you can adjust angles really easily..........
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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David Goldsmith, If you edited skateboard up until its demise, then I would know you. Unless you have some nickname from that time or you didnt skate.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| tuxpoo wrote: |
| David Goldsmith, If you edited skateboard up until its demise, then I would know you. Unless you have some nickname from that time or you didnt skate. |
Did I say I edited it? The magazine was edited from the outset by Bruce Sawford, who also edited Kung Fu Monthly and went on to edit/manage the hugely successful Personal Computer World. I was technical editor of the magazine for about 18 months. I'd been at Alpine Sports in London, involved in ski/skate retail.
Is tuxpoo your real name?
| Weathercam wrote: |
| I can't help but thinking that you're just Googling to come up with all this information and that you were never importing etc etc. |
What can I say? I set up a little enterprise called Snow Motion, air-freighted the first 20 Wintersticks into England, which were sold to me by Dimitrije Milovich himself (who I'd visited at his Salt Lake City factory).
Do you want me to appear in a witness box and swear on the bible, already?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| bar shaker wrote: |
David you really do talk some rubbish. At 13, in 1976 I lived in Romford. Hoards of us used to meet up on Sunday mornings to ride the shopping precinct and subways on skateboards. Some were expensive commercial boards, some were home made jobs made with skates stolen from King Georges park skating rink.
As for moving your feet around like a surfer, a surf board needs lots of volume to float/plane and this requires lots of edge pressure to turn. Such foot movement is just not needed on a snowboard. |
Well, OK. I was 23 in 1976, skating at the Broadwalk, Kensington Gardens (which is where it began in London, and continued until park keepers spread gravel over the whole slope) and then the Southbank. I don't think you talk rubbish.
The big change that took place in snowboard design - which actually took over ten years - was the simple adoption of flat ski-type bases and steel edges. For ten years before that, snowboards were made more like surfboards and didn't have steel edges.
You're right that edge control is a key factor, and that solid edge control on hardpack would be much critical even than edge control on water. But in powder it would be interesting to see variable foot positions and hence freer use of the rest of the body as in regular surfing. It probably isn't possible, but it might be possible.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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David, the width of a snowboard negates the need to move the foot across the board, as is the case with a mono water ski and a wake board. By securing the feet to the board, you can exercise all the edge pressure you need. The reason is that snowboards, like wake boards, don't need to be wide to float when travelling.
The big development in snowboarding was getting away from ski boots and using purpose made snowboard boots. I struggled for years with ski boots on an F2 world cup race board. It was insanely fast but the ski boots offered insufficient control at lower speeds (you couldn't move your CoG forward enough due to insufficient boot flex) and the next face plant was only ever seconds away at anything below 30mph.
I also skated the Southbank in 76 and remember when Hornchurch skate park opened, which was a revolution for skateboarding in the SE. We even experimented with toe loos on our skateboards, all of 22 years ago. The control was better but the injuries were really bad.
Burton's ICS is a revelation in binding location. You can transform my Vapor from a piste weapon to the perfect powder tool in less than 2 minutes, without taking my gloves off.
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I don't think there's any fundamental disagreement on this thread. Skiers are happy with fixed foot positions on their planks, because their feet can move relative to each other.
The snowboard industry periodically splits decks to achieve the same thing, for climbing and walking. There's also a lot of experimentation with boot/binding design to optimise choice and control for different conditions, but it still amounts to fixed foot positions during a given run.
I'm simply contending that if it was mechanically possible (it may be), then snowboarders and monoskiers would opt to have moveable foot positions on the same deck - partly because of the different needs of sliding the slope in the fall-line, against sliding across it in a traverse.
Achieving variable foot positions on a monoski would be easier than on a snowboard, since you could technically mount the bindings on sliding tracks.
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FAQ
