 Poster: A snowHead
|
From yesterday's Irish Independent
An Irishman has been killed after a fall while skiing in Austria. The 36-year-old fell and slid at high speed at the Schmittenhoehe resort in Salzburg on Sunday. It is understood the man, who has not been named by the Austrian authorities, died of head injuries while being ferried by helicopter ambulance to a hospital. "The man was skiing on one of our central slopes shortly after 3pm when there was an accident," a resort spokeswoman. "Other skiers alerted our medical team and he was treated on the mountain before being transferred to hospital. But unfortunately he died of his injuries."
I was skiing there on Friday and Saturday last. The black straight down to the top of Schmitten Strasse was one steep and very icy run, I wonder did the accident happen there? I have twin tips and I'll normally hold an edge but on parts of that run I was really struggling.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Dam thats terrible. It must have been one awful fall. I really hope he did not suffer too much. This world is a much worst place with one less skiier.
Peter Ross, If you learn any more about the accident will you please post it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
very sad indeed 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
|
|
|
|
It is a shame that this slope causes a fatality.
When we skied it in 2004 Christmas I noted the slope was rather long. It wasn't particularly steep (say average black run standard for Austria) but if one loses it it is a long way down.
We did notice there were a couple of spots that never get the sun and had rock ice. This photo captures some feature of it.
I thought the view was rather scary and took a few photos of it. The far view is the lake and bottom is the town Zell am See itself.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Peter Ross, Sad news. The photo of your brothers head make me feel that wearing my helmet is worthwhile
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
In my experience in cold snow conditions all runs down to resort can get cut up and scraped in the afternoon unless the resort is very quiet, In Saalbach it wasn't so bad as there are so many different ways of getting home. I never bothers me but sometimes my wife isn't too happy with me and my run choice!
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
Peter Ross, didn't see the papers yesterday - that is really really bad news - i think the helmet purchase just went from "fairly definite" to "i'll go and buy one in the great outdoors at lunchtime, sod the inflated price"
Sympathies to the family and friends
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
doogo, They have a really good sale on at the moment!! ! Some great value in there.
Terrible news thoughts and sympathies go out to the family.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
According to stanton's posted link in German "Der 36-Jährige stürzte auf der Nordabfahrt des Skigebiets "Schmittenhöhe" the accident happened on black 11 'Nord' and not 14 'Trass' which is a good run, though can be very icy and appears very steep to all but advanced and expert skiers but is thankfully quiet because of it.
The Nord, on the other hand is a complete b*****disation of a ski run, a classic example of what happens because marketing seems to demand a resort run. It starts off blue with a couple of light red and narrowish bends and finishes mainly blue with some red at the end. The problem is that there are two narrow black schusses in the middle which, by 3pm, have been in shade for at least an hour and are very icy. The result is a run that is graded black as a result of the steepness of less than 20% of it's terrain
What transpires is that far too many inexperienced skiers get lulled into it by it's blue start and then try to take on these schusses and it can be carnage by 4pm with a lethal mix of inexperience, bravado and drunks standing in a huge crowd at the top of the first schuss plucking up the courage to take it on.
The mountain company are, IMHO, partially at fault by not making it clear that it is black beyond middlestation and also not making the existence of winding blue skiweg alternative clear. Some will say that it is perfectly clear on the piste map but it is patently not clear enough. Ask any instructor who works from middlestation, most of them download on the gondola rather than get caught up helping the fallen and the terrified as they inevitably feel obliged to do. Never mind the risk of being taken out themselves! who knows, maybe even this is what happened to the poor chap who was killed on Sunday?
Warning - Rant Coming Up! 
Personally I am getting sick of the attitude of what seems, admittedly mainly from what I read on here, like the majority of European resorts, sweeping accident and death statisitics under the carpet and doing damn all about poor signage and dangerous skiing. There is no ski patrol in Zell am See that I have ever seen, only the lifties skiing down at the close to check for stragglers. Some of the skiing I saw in the last two weeks whilst I was there was truly frightening and I am most regrettably not surprised that there have been two deaths on the Schmittenhoehe on a fortnight.
Traditional visitors to Austria - Brits, Irish and Western Europeans were in the minority this January, I have never seen so many Eastern European cars or heard so many strange languages and accents before, yet the resort has made very little effort to cater for their needs, many of them spoke no German and I was asked countless times in broken English to help, explain to or give directions. How many of them ended up on a slope too difficult for them because they could not read the signs?
Helmet debates abound on here. Personally I have worn one for years and am very used to and comfortable with it, although I have only recently started skiing fast enough that I might need it in a fall. But why should I feel I have to wear one to protect myself from idiots that the mountain company will do nothing about.
Until we start at least naming, shaming, and, if need be, advocate boycotting resorts that will not take their responsibilities seriously they will do nothing about it. If you get hurt because of their negligence - sue them, pain in the pocket maybe the only thing they understand.
My apologies for hijacking a thread telling us of this poor chaps death, my thoughts and prayers are with his family and friends at this sad time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
robboj, good points re language. I know in Ireland they had health and safety messages in Polish on building sites during the boom. Maybe a mountain awareness leaflet should be handed out with ski passes in the most common languages. I think ski patrol is really needed if nothing else to educate people. I am an advanced skier so wouldn't have contol problems in any conditions but there are numerous lunnies going too fast on crowded pistes some with poor control.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
robboj, top post. What you describe is very frightening.
| Quote: |
But why should I feel I have to wear one to protect myself from idiots that the mountain company will do nothing about.
|
Good question. (It's the only reason I currently do, as I don't ski fast, or in trees/near rocks off-piste.)
Sympathies to this poor guy's family.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
robboj, I agree with everything you are saying, resorts need to be held much more accountable. I would also like to see more fencing across the end of slopes/junctions to ensure that idiots are forced to slow down. They obviously need the signs that say "caution slow" to be stitched into their jackets with a flashing arrow pointing at themselves.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
robboj, there's a black at Les Deux Alpes a bit like that. To be fair it is clearly marked as a black, and the resort has a reputation for it's blacks being serious - so there is little excuse for the unwary skier who starts down what looks like a blue slope, and then suddenly has a short but very steep (and when I skied on it mogully) section. I don't think I would want such slopes removed form the map. They are clearly marked, and I thought the one I was on (sorry, the name escapes me) enjoyable - kept me awake.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
robboj, good post and some interesting points. I witnessed an accident last year in Zell where the flattish road section from the Glocknerhaus meets the Panorama area. Just above the end of the flat bit, on the left, is a mini half pipe type of thing. There is very little if any run-off from the half pipe, and last year I saw a young lad literally come flying through the air at the bottom of the half pipe, ploughing straight into someone just reaching the end of the flat roadway from Glockner. He hit the poor unsuspecting woman with his knees literally around her head height. Was a horrid thing to see.
The point I was trying (very ineloquently) to make was that I couldn't understand how the resort could get away with putting a half pipe type structure in a position where anybody who loses control will literally fly right into crowds of blue run skiers. It beggars belief.
I know it is not only Zell that has issues like this, in fact in most resorts I have been to there have been some questionable safety decisions. But I do think it's high time that it was taken seriously.
Interestingly, as a local property owner, I am frequently being invited to tourist office seminars on topics like 'welcoming our eastern european guests', but it seems the lift management company don't feel the need to attend...
D
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Sad news. Run 14 is a fantastic run through the trees.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Don't know the connection if the same company owns Kaprun and Zell am See which are sold on a same ski pass.
The not-long-ago Kaprun tunnel fire killed a number of skiers because the operator opened up the door at the top so that the fire at the funicular could be fed with oxygen to develop a tunnel effect. The fire was ignited by sparks on grease and oil left on the track.
May be the mountain company has something to answer.
Having said that I didn't find the black piste in Zell am See particularly hazardous. They are no different to places like Chamonix (Grans Montets), Engelberg or LDA... There are always more icy patches in Scottish or Norweigean restorts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
I'm sorry to disagree with you all, but some of robboj's points are heading too far towards everything being covered in bubble wrap just in case some idiot skis into it.
Everyone on the mountain should be aware that skiing is a potentially fatal sport, and they should have understood and accepted that risk. Criticising the signage for not being written in Polish, Russian, Bulgarian (and presumably Irish) is well wide of the mark - you ask "how many of them ended up on a slope too difficult for them because they could not read the signs" - the answer should be none, since the signs are colour coded for a very good reason. If the sign had to say "Easy", "Medium" and "Experts only" in every language, the signs would cover half the width of the piste, or be 40 feet high with all of the writing in 10 point text. If skiers are incapable of telling the difference between blue and black, they shouldn't be on the mountain. Anyone who starts down a black run thinking that it looks like a blue so far so should be fine all the way down needs to have their head examined.
Deliaskis, sorry, but the lift company make a considerable effort to communicate with all of their guests, as the piste map collection makes clear - the printed copies are in something like 14 languages, including Russian and Polish, for that reason. What more could they reasonably do - have signs saying "Please stop being an idiot and ignoring the signs"??? That's what idiots do - ignore the rules, ignore the signs, and ignore advice.
All that notwithstanding, I have every sympathy with the friends and relatives of the unfortunate skier in this case.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
saikee, see http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=257 - your (highly inaccurate) post could be read as suggesting that the lift company are institutionally negligent and have been for some time, which I'm sure they'd dispute, and which I have never seen any evidence to support. Perhaps you'd like to withdraw that post?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
saikee, they were even more culpable than that. 160+ people were killed due to the fitting of dodgy, plastic domestic fan heaters to the sealed conductors cabs. The leaking hydraulic fluid from the braking system caught alight and then the train stopped in the tunnel which became a chimney. When I was there last month I realised they never re-opened the funicular, or found anyone negligent.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
My condolences to his family.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
ousekjarr,
I think the chimney effect, a large number of fatalities and a small fire ignited by the combustible materials left on the track were well established. The fact that nobody was found negligence doesn't mean the comapny has nothing to answer for other seemingly poor management or unsafe practices put forward by this forum.
The fact the Kaprun funicular system was withdrawn speaks for the whole saga. Other funiculars still running safely in Davos, Santa Cristina, Les Arcs, Tignes...
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
saikee,
you said:
| Quote: |
[the] fire killed a number of skiers because the operator opened up the door at the top so that the fire at the funicular could be fed with oxygen to develop a tunnel effect
|
They did not open any door at the top, as there was no such door. The tunnel effect was caused by the fact that it was in.... a tunnel.
Your statement reads that they opened a door intentionally to feed the fire with oxygen ("so that.."). It may be terrible use of English, but that doesn't excuse the impression it leaves.
The "combustible materials left on the track" seems an invention of yours, rather than being "well established" - the inquiry found that an internal heater on the train caught fire and ignited hydraulic fluid. If the fire had been started on the track, the train would have cleared it well before anything on the train ignited.
Unfortunately, we are all too frequently guilty of 20/20 hindsight when accidents happen. No-one locked flight decks before 9/11, smoking was freely permitted on the Underground before Kings Cross, asbestos was used for years before it was found to be carcinogenic, etc. At the time, the Kaprun lift company were operating in full compliance with all safety regulations, which is why no-one was found guilty at the trial. The families wanted someone to blame, and no doubt there were individuals within the company who looked back afterwards and wished they could change a decision they had made, but the fact remains that there was no reason to find them negligent.
The funicular was "withdrawn" because it was quicker, cheaper and more respectful to build the gondola system, which also had a higher uplift capacity. I'm not aware of any tunnel inspections after the fire, but I would expect the heat to have caused stress fractures in the rock, with the result that a new tunnel would have to be excavated or extensive concrete reinforcements added, all of which would add to the expense and delay. The other funiculars are still running because they've not (yet) had an accident.
Also, the Kaprun lift company is Gletscherbahnen Kaprun AG, while the Zell company is Schmittenhoehebahn AG. They share a lift pass, but nothing else. You are too quick to reach conclusions based on assumptions, half-truths and rumours.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
ousekjarr, you've picked up on a very small part of my post, which I guess was a meant to be a bit of a throw away comment. I do realise that they print the piste map in lots of languages, which is great, so I take back that part.
The colour coding system is of course meant to avoid communication issues, but I don't concur that every novice who ever ended up on a black 'by accident' must by default be an idiot.
I do feel that there are some safety issues at a number of points on the mountain, which could no doubt be easily resolved, but they're not. I mentioned the half pipe human cannon situation to someone at the base station last year and got shrug and a 'naja, das ist schwierig'. So do I think they take it seriously.... not so much. That's just my experience though and it could have been an unfortunate example.
All of which may well have little to do with the OP, but safety on the mountain (as in any mountain) remains a serious concern, and it is interesting to read the different points of view.
D
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Deliaskis wrote: |
| ......The colour coding system is of course meant to avoid communication issues, but I don't concur that every novice who ever ended up on a black 'by accident' must by default be an idiot. ...... |
Why not?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| ousekjarr wrote: |
If skiers are incapable of telling the difference between blue and black, they shouldn't be on the mountain.
. |
When my wife has googles on she seems to find it hard to distinguish blue and black, in Chamonix at Christmas I wasn't sure either as some blues look rather black in steepness and the run down to the valley on Flegere down to La Praz was defo a blue but graded black but I think this was because it gets very icy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
achilles, because an idiot would continue to ski blithely around ignoring the signs and disregarding the possible consequences, whereas there are any number of other circumstances that could end up with a novice being on a run that is too difficult for them. For example, them not seeing the signs (different to ignoring) because they are positioned in a strange location, poor visibility making it difficult to see where piste junctions or signposting are, badly designed piste maps (not uncommon), receiving bad directions off someone who might well be an idiot, being assured by a 'friend' that it wasn't steep etc. The list could go on....
I would imagine there are lots of completely non-idiotic  who have at some point or other found themselves somewhere they hadn't intended on being.
D
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
Peter Ross, come to think of it I have seen the blue/black thing. Good reason to change her goggles - or take a momentary peek with the goggles clear of the eyes?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Deliaskis, fair enough, but I'm sure that just about every mountain has its issues, from black runs crossing blue areas, badly sited features, inadequate signage, lack of padding or whatever, and there's no way that any of them are ever going to be perfect. If they were, I'd hate it, and I'm sure you would too, because there would be signs every 2 metres reminding you to ski within your limits, both sides of the piste would be bounded by inflatable walls 10 feet high, and we'd all be forced to ski wearing full body armour and a helmet, while all slopes of over 20 degrees would require a special "advanced skier" licence to access, which would require a 4-week training course and a €200 annual licence fee to achieve and keep...
When you spoke to "someone at the base station", was it some random liftie, or the person utlimately responsible for the mountain? Perhaps a letter would do more good? I agree that the siting of the pipe sounds sub-optimal, but maybe that was the only option, and at the end of the season there's a plan to re-route the blue run by 20m to allow for a barrier to be put in place - without asking in detail, you'll never find out.
It's also the case that the UK has become paranoid about safety over the last 10 years, and it shows in these sort of discussions. God help us if it continues, as there's not enough cotton wool in the world to wrap every child in enough to keep them safe from all possible harm. The rest of Europe seems a little more relaxed, and I'm in support of that attitude.
Last year, a UK tourist died when they removed the safety padding from a metal fence in an Italian resort, and used it as an impromptu sledge, thereby propelling themselves into the same fence they had removed the padding from, killing themselves outright. The UK approach is to demand to know how they were allowed to remove the padding, why it hadn't been fitted with tamper-proof fixings, why there was no-one monitoring the slope at night, and so on. No-one seems prepared to say that the unfortunate person in that case was a muppet who made a collosally stupid mistake which proved fatal, but I'm afraid it's true no matter how unpalatable that seems to our overly-twitchy sensitivities.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Quote: |
whereas there are any number of other circumstances that could end up with a novice being on a run that is too difficult for them
|
....not to mention all the ridiculous misgrading of runs in numerous resorts all over the Alps which catches more than just novice skiers out... for example the Canyon and Balme runs in Alp D'Huez being graded RED when even in good conditions they can be harder than most Austrian and Italian Blacks I've skied... you couldn't blame a mid range intermediate for going down either just from looking at a piste map one sunny afternoon... and they could well find themselves up poo-poo creek without a proverbial paddle if they did!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
SnowGod, The Balme run is mark as a black i believe, well it was 3 weeks ago. You are definitely right about the Canyon run though which i would have graded black if it was up to me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
ousekjarr,
I did state that at the beginning of my post that I had no knowledge if the same company own or operate the two resorts.
I believe it is normal to have a door at an exit at the top of a funicular system for the purpose of prevent user going in the opposite direction and to stop the natural cold draught. Thus the top of the funicular system is sealed effectively or ineffectively.
I did not use the Kaprun funicular before but for a small fire to develop to incerate the funicular and kill so many people there had to be continuously and adequately supply of oxygen. May be there was no seal possible at the Kaprun funicular. May be the door never shut and had operated for years without a mishap. May be operators put doors on every funicular after the Kaprun event.
It is funny you should mention the KingX fire as the fire couldn't gain its strength had there been no rubbish available for the combustion. I think the abestos could be many of the commonly used materials which could ultimately proved to be carcinogenic if exposed sufficiently.
I am sure it is unlikely a fatality on a groomed piste would be blamed on the mountain company. However some companies or operators do provide extra provisons if they consider their facilities may cause problems to the piste users. I have seen many piste runs with "Expert only" warning signs. Kitzbuhel displayed the gradients on some of their steep black runs. Mayrholfen has sevaral signs on its Harkari citing it being the steepest in Austria...
If Zell am See does not see fit to warn the piste users on its black runs then it is their right as it comply fully with the regulation in force. Personally a warning sign telling the piste users with something like "Caution, long gradient with icy spots" would be welcome.
If I remember it correctly a couple of the sunless spots seem to be the convenient dumping ground or collection points for the ice. We always avoid to descend the main routes at peak time and so the snow condition was acceptable to us, as depicted by the photo.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
a lethal mix of inexperience, bravado and drunks standing in a huge crowd at the top of the first schuss plucking up the courage to take it on.
|
 Horrendous. I have never understood why so many skiers think it a slight on their manhood to download in a gondola rather than try to mix it with a combination of tired and inept beginners and daft boy racers who think they can ski.
A few well-placed signs can be very useful. The red to the bottom of Les Contamines last week had a clear sign (albeit only in three languages) saying it was a narrow piste and not suitable for beginners. Very true - and the bottom half was icy, with quite scary drops off the edge. I skied it under control throughout, but didn't enjoy it, especially the bit where I had to take to the outside edge rather than wait behind exactly the kind of beginners the sign had warned against (big fat Frenchmen, all snowploughing). I would not have been at all happy if it had got steeper. There's a black run in Notre Dame which is fine, normally, but is sometimes very mogully and a bit icy - they then have a sign saying it's for "tres bon skiers" only - and when that sign is up I always take the alternative, very pleasant, cruisy blue run. So much depends on the snow.
I do think resorts should do a bit more to pounce on people skiing out of control and give them a stiff warning. Blatant offenders should be escorted to the bottom and their lift passes taken away, at least for the rest of that day. Word would soon get around.
The pisteurs I see skiing round here are mostly very impressive skiers. I suspect they would enjoy being on a roster to catch, and caution, the boy racers (they're mostly boys, to be fair!).
That picture of the cut head (nice stitching!) could sell a thousand helmets.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
saikee, speak to an engineer - you cannot make an airtight seal in a tunnel and then run a train full of passengers through it. Apart from the fact that the train won't move very well, the air pushed in front of it has to have somewhere to go, otherwise it makes an exit by blowing the door off at high speed. The passengers also need to breath, and object to their ears bleeding from the pressure imbalance caused.
Black runs are by definition intended only for competent skiers. Adding a warning sign to that effect, and in 14 languages, does not make it less likely that an idiot will ignore the signs. The Harakiri in Mayrhofen is an interesting case - the sign is more "go ahead if you think you're hard enough" than "don't do it, you will die", and that's a conscious marketing decision made by the resort management to attract punters.
Even with warning signs, we all know that conditions have an inordinate effect on the difficulty of a piste - a run may be graded black because it is moderately steep but almost always icy, but someone skiing it on a perfect day might get lucky and find it with an excellent cover of fresh snow, and wonder why it isn't a red. Conversely, a steep red in good conditions most of the time might be considered a black when it is mogulled, icy, and with poor contrast. The signs are there to help, but the skier is responsible for making sure they have the skills to be able to cope (even if that means side-slipping the whole way) rather than falling and hurting themselves or others. More signs are not the answer - I'm not sure what is, but maybe some form of "driving test" for skiers is the way forward, although of course most drunk drivers and those causing death by dangerous driving have passed such a test and ignored the speed limits and signs...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| ousekjarr wrote: |
| saikee, speak to an engineer - you cannot make an airtight seal in a tunnel and then run a train full of passengers through it. Apart from the fact that the train won't move very well, the air pushed in front of it has to have somewhere to go, otherwise it makes an exit by blowing the door off at high speed. The passengers also need to breath, and object to their ears bleeding from the pressure imbalance caused......... |
An airlock system might be possible, which allowed the air to circulate whilst trains were moving safely, but stopped the chimney effect in the event of a fire and trains stopping?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
I once met a man who claimed not to have seen 5 of these large banners as he skied past them. 
