 Poster: A snowHead
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As anyone booking ski holidays this winter will already be aware (especially those who committed early and paid full brochure price), there is very heavy discounting. Much acccommodation in the Alps is sitting empty.
Peter Hardy, on Telegraph.co.uk, predicts that failures of chalet operators "are expected to follow in April when they will have no cash coming in and must commit to contracts for next season."
Here's his report.
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| Travel companies have already cut back drastically on charter flights to the Alps and Pyrenees and are asking foreign chalet owners to accept cuts of between 20 and 50 per cent in rent. Owners of buy-to-let properties have little choice but to comply if they want to renew deals for next year ... The downturn comes in the closing stages of what has been the best winter for snow cover in the Alps for at least 25 years. In the past week, during the so-called Storm of the Century, Austria received up to two metres of fresh snow. |
So, things could have been a lot worse!
Do you expect your favourite tour operator to be around next year? If you're in the trade, what are your instincts of the prospects?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Do you expect your favourite tour operator to be around next year?
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As a DIY booker - yes I'm planning on it. I drive and use the Chunnel, so that will still be available as an option. I book direct with Chalet owners, the chalets will still be there and someone will want to rent them rather than have them standing empty.
I think the only impact for me is that there may be more people booking Chunnel and apartments direct as they look for a cheaper option.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Boris, point taken, but presumably the best bargains have been secured this season by those skiers snapping up holidays sold at a loss because the operator has to fill seats contracted in advance, in accommodation contracted in advance. So the operator secures whatever revenue can be obtained on that forward risk/investment.
But you may be right, in the sense that operator capacity may be cut back so much for next winter that the best deals available will be independently booked direct.
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If there is an increased likelihood of failures even more pertinent is to ensure ANYONE you are paying money to for a ski trip is either ABTA or ATOL bonded.
Paying with credit card also may give a level of protection.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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David Goldsmith, I'm not sure - there will always be a market for people who want everything organised for them and don't want to cook on holiday. Rightly so - DIY and self-catering is not for everyone.
I'm sure that there will be,as this article suggests, a contraction in the market. The ones who succed are the ones who adapt or have a USP. I noticed this year that the Chalets we booked were offering a chef as and when required - I think that's a great idea - self-cater but you can get someone else in to cook if needed.
Likewise other chalets were offering a pre-stocked kitchen etc
The market will change and adapt to customers requirements - well that's the theory
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| Boris wrote: |
| I noticed this year that the Chalets we booked were offering a chef as and when required ... |
... and if you require to have someone effing and blinding in the kitchen.
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| At least half a dozen British chalet tour operators may go under |
That is self-evidently true (assuming there are at least six to begin with). Sloppy use of language or journalistic back bottom-covering.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| Boris wrote: |
| I noticed this year that the Chalets we booked were offering a chef as and when required ... |
... and if you require to have someone effing and blinding in the kitchen. |
I'm available for a small charge
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Boris,
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I'm available for a small charge
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So we've heard 
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Boredsurfing, at the docks most days
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Boris, Are you a battery?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Frosty the Snowman, I'm positive
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Boris, this is a great idea, and one which operates in Serre Chevalier too. You can have preprepared dinners delivered or opt have them cook in the chalet. everyone has loved it so far.
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You know it makes sense.
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I noticed in the original article ;
"The situation has been described by one operator as "nothing short of a nightmare". Even Courchevel, the most glamorous resort in France, has been hit. January is normally high season, thanks to the number of Russian visitors celebrating the Orthodox Christmas."
Is there a paticular week or two when Russian visitors celebrate the Orthodox Christmas
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| kendub wrote: |
Is there a paticular week or two when Russian visitors celebrate the Orthodox Christmas |
based on the amount of visitors with faux fur and jackets with 'luxury' written on them then I'd say the first two weeks in january - couldn't move in les arcs without getting on a lift with a ruskie...
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Poster: A snowHead
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I was in LEs Arcs w/c 10 Jan and don't recall hearing/seeing anyone other than usual French/English/Dutch
Just out of interest, surely Russia has got mountains and areas which could be developed into Ski Areas? Why the desire to come across to France 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Just out of interest, surely Russia has got mountains and areas which could be developed into Ski Areas? Why the desire to come across to France
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Same could be said of Scotland, but I've never skied there because I'm sure I'll have a better holiday in the Alps.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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xyzpaul, I can understand Brits going to the Alps - for many of us it is closer/quicker to get there than Scotland. But as SHs will testify has an established ski business.
I'm showing my ignorance, but I'm sure I've seen various Warren Millar films when they've been in Russia - high mountains and plenty of snow - just no infrastructure
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Well - it mentioned Indigo Lodges who went under, but they are very, very high-end - really expensive places. Lovely, but a LOT of money, so I wans't really surprised.
For most people, I think, as Boris says, you need to offer more for the money, and stand out. There are a lot more places looking for a lot less custom.
I think as an independent you do have some advantages with flexibility on deals, according to your own property and what its strong points are - we're looking at increasing what we include, especially a stocked kitchen as you mention, flexible catering etc. We do a lot of this anyway but don't publicise it that much - this is going to change. People who want something really cheap are never going to book with us anyway, so higher quality for the money is the way to go for us, I feel.
The cheap tour op prices are certainly having a big effect - they need to sell their quota so there are some amazing deals around. This will probably not be the case next year as the capacity will be so much less - but a lot of people may well wait, next year, to see what happens with prices, after seeing the deals they could have got. Certainly those without families who can travel outside the peak weeks.
I have noticed a lot more people preferring to drive - with a group of 10 in two cars this is quite a big saving.
I suppose from my pov, to sum up...Next year, a lot of people will be waiting - shortlisting a few places and seeing how the bookings go. There will be plenty of choice for them, outside the big weeks. I'll need to work harder on making sure that our place stands out immediately as somewhere you don't want to miss out on. We've done pretty well this year, but our bookings tend to be far in advance because it's a big place. Next year may be more of a challenge I think.
We'll be looking at more advertising in other countries too. Incidentally we had (thoroughly nice) Russian guests for New Year, and the first two weeks of January. I think Orthodox Christmas is the 5th.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Fri 27-02-09 14:49; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Yes, I think it's mostly heli-skiing in Russia. My geography of it's not great, but perhaps the sheer size of the country makes ski resort development difficult?
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| Boris wrote: |
I'm showing my ignorance, but I'm sure I've seen various Warren Millar films when they've been in Russia - high mountains and plenty of snow - just no infrastructure |
We're going to see quite a bit more of that come the Winter Olympics in Sochi. There's actually a possibility of Alaska snow, maritime high-angle snowpack.
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back on topic.... I think that the operators that will be in real trouble are those who sell their holidays in Sterling and are highly geared in terms of finances.......
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so higher quality for the money is the way to go for us, I feel.
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Good call - we pay way over the odds the last few years for the chalets we've booked. BUT I feel like it was worth it as have had bigger rooms, no sleeping in lounge, en-suites etc.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| marcellus wrote: |
| back on topic.... I think that the operators that will be in real trouble are those who sell their holidays in Sterling and are highly geared in terms of finances....... |
My ex-employer charged in sterling but paid the majority of their suppliers in euros. This carried on long after the slide in currencies began and resulted in mayhem, with the ridiculous situation of Dutch, Italian etc clients having to pay to convert euros into sterling, which then had to be converted back into euros to pay the suppliers. Charges and losses all round, which put the company in a precarious financial position, and why they are now my ex-employer! We (new company) charge in euros if the supplier charges that way and in sterling if that way. We have both euro and sterling accounts and it runs very smoothly. This company has been in operation for 30 years, so must be doing something right!
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There are a huge number of what could be called 'chalet tour operators'. Look in an old copy of The Good Ski Guide for a list.
I am sure in normal times six fold every year for various reasons. So the story does not seem particularly alarming.
If he said nameable ski companies will go under it would be a different matter.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Latchigo, I suspect the situation is actually more serious than reported (in terms of the number of companies) but for legal reasons he would be restricted in naming names.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I met a chap in Meribel during the first week of February who had rented a chalet for the season. His plan was to live in the Alps, pay a chalet girl and make a profit. £20,000 would have made him happy. By that stage, a £20,000 LOSS was going to make him happy...
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Anyone relying solely on the British market at the moment is on to a loser, expanding your market to include the Europeans is definitely a good move at the moment.
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You know it makes sense.
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James the Last, that's a man who had no clue what he was doing in the first place.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
we pay way over the odds the last few years for the chalets we've booked. BUT I feel like it was worth it as have had bigger rooms, no sleeping in lounge, en-suites etc
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I've never been to a chalet where people had to kip in the lounge - and the ones I went to were never high-end. My son, who is working in an exclusive enclave in Meribel, said earlier in the season that some of the (very expensive) chalets in the area had very few bookings for the season. The trouble is, that it's not only the "bog standard" end of the market which is over-supplied - there are any number of posh ones too, all charging some serious money (thousands of pounds per bed per week) and just not enough customers.
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that's a man who had no clue what he was doing in the first place.
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absolutely. Expecting to make £20k profit from one chalet in the first season (without having to do the work yourself)!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Lizzard, pam w, Yup.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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pam w, I've found it's quite common in self-catering chalets, especially French ones. One particularly memorable place in Tignes had fold down beds in the kitchen!! 
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Also, considering all this doom and gloom, we need a room for a couple of nights in Chamonix in early March, and were going to book into a hotel rather than impose three of us on friends. But since all the places we know and like are full, it looks like we'll be bugging our mates!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| firebug wrote: |
| Also, considering all this doom and gloom, we need a room for a couple of nights in Chamonix in early March, and were going to book into a hotel rather than impose three of us on friends. But since all the places we know and like are full, it looks like we'll be bugging our mates! |
Surely you can do a deal with a competitor at a knock down price if the doom & gloom is true.
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pam w, even the top end chalets we've been in have sofa beds in lounge - which would be needed if you were to get their suggested occupancy. My rule of thumb when booking in France is to search for a chalet which sleeps at least 4 more than we need
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Boris, are you sure you mean chalets rather than self catering apartments? I think we're at cross purposes here.
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pam w, I think he means a self-catering chalet - I have dithered several times about listing on French sites as most places include a sofa bed or coin montagne in the sleeping numbers, and also linen and cleaning is generally extra.
This makes us look very expensive by comparison so I'm not sure it's worth it.
Quite a few French friends have wondered why we advertise it for ten, not fourteen - I think (wild generalisation here) that the french are more used to high maximum occupancies on a ski holiday
Of course not all French run s/c chalets are managed like this, but it's certainly common.
fatbob, you'd think so, wouldn't you! But actually a lot of them are full.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Quite a few French friends have wondered why we advertise it for ten, not fourteen - I think (wild generalisation here) that the french are more used to high maximum occupancies on a ski holiday
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I think that's right. Our Belgian friends advertise their apartment, just slightly bigger than ours, for 7 whereas although we have 7 places where people can lie down for the night, we try to avoid more than 4. I would have thought that it's the "catered chalet" operators who had the biggest problems, as their overheads must be much greater. I suppose that if people have bought property with large loans which have to be serviced, maybe with rather optimistic estimates of occupation, things could become v difficult.
easiski, that initiative sounds excellent. Judging by enquiries on snowheads, flexible 3, 4, 5 day "packages" with accommodation, ski school etc. could be very popular. Perhaps resorts should think a bit about transfers, too. In Areches-Beaufort which is about 35/40 minutes from Albertville, they have a set up where you can get a bus to and from Albertville, free with a day ski pass. It's part of their "greener skiing" initiative. The "Mountainsun" set up is perhaps the shape of things to come.
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FAQ
