 Poster: A snowHead
|
Italy has decided to make avalanche safety gear (avalanche transceiver, shovel and probe) mandatory for all winter sports enthusiasts who go out of marked and secured ski runs, according to Pistehors. The law will apply to off-piste skiers and snowboarders.
The law covers the Piemont region in the north of Italy and supersedes the national law (L. 24 December 2003, n.363), which obliged ski tourers to use avalanche beacons if there was a clear risk of avalanche (this probably means risk 3 or above). Fines are up to 250 euros. ...
British skiers should take careful note of this law, as they may find that their insurance is invalid if they ski off piste or tour in the Piemont without the appropriate gear required by Italian law.
http://pistehors.com/news/ski/comments/0900-italy-make-avalanche-safety-gear-mandatory/?gid=900000
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
daehwons, I can't argue with this and I think it's the sensible way to go.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| daehwons wrote: |
Italy has decided to make avalanche safety gear (avalanche beacon, shovel and probe) mandatory for all winter sports enthusiasts heading out of marked and secured ski runs. The law will also apply to off piste skiers.
|
Wot - no avalanche cords? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
I trust avalanche cords are deemed an alternative to beacons. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| geepee wrote: |
| daehwons, I can't argue with this and I think it's the sensible way to go. |
It's daft. Having the gear to avoid being fined is one thing, but knowing how to use it is another. If the gear is mandatory, the training and some kind of certification must also be mandatory or the law really is an ass.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| geepee wrote: |
| daehwons, I can't argue with this and I think it's the sensible way to go. |
It's daft. Having the gear to avoid being fined is one thing, but knowing how to use it is another. If the gear is mandatory, the training and some kind of certification must also be mandatory or the law really is an ass. |
I agree and I was assuming that if people were properly equipped they would also learn to use it correctly, but I'm sure you are correct in saying that many people will just have the equipment to comply with the law but at least it might make them think more about safety.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| geepee wrote: |
| I agree and I was assuming that if people were properly equipped they would also learn to use it correctly, |
Big asssumption. My mate's owned the gear for about 3 seasons and knows how to turn on the avvy beep but that's about it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Bode Swiller, I guess most will know how to turn on a beep, at least.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Bode Swiller, It's a first step in the right direction I guess. Like fitting seatbelts to cars came before making people use them...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Strikes me as more benefitial to the hiring shop than to the safety of off-piste skiers!
As high avi risk days, having the gear is worse than... not going off-piste at all!!! 
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| abc wrote: |
Strikes me as more benefitial to the hiring shop than to the safety of off-piste skiers!
As high avi risk days, having the gear is worse than... not going off-piste at all!!! |
Interesting point, could the fact that people have the gear because they are made to give them a false sense of security and therfore attempt off piste when they shouldn't be?
It all comes back to training and awareness
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
daehwons, indeed - but the fact remains a lot of people are already going off-piste without the gear.
At the very least this move might reduce time spent on recovering bodies. 
I will be interested in Davidof's opinion
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
...
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Sat 15-06-24 10:56; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
In general I am against the sort of thing that nanny's us too much..but I do think the above suggestion is reasonable re the avi course.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
I think a better law would be the ones similar to diving. You can't hire diving equipments without a certificate!
Yes, it's very boarderline nanny-state. But think about it, what's so bad about having to take a course on snow safety? Maybe even an exempt test for those who already took the course in the past?
The issue has becomes, you can't be safe yourself if the skiers above you aren't.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| abc wrote: |
I think a better law would be the ones similar to diving. You can't hire diving equipments without a certificate!
|
But as with diving, many people buy their own equipment, and no certificate is needed for that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| abc wrote: |
I think a better law would be the ones similar to diving. You can't hire diving equipments without a certificate!
|
What equipment would you say requires some form of certificate before you are able to hire it? I think the number of people who hire avy equipment is miniscule.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
I posted this article about avalanche cords recently,
didn't seem to arouse much interest though.
I can see some advantage for rescue services if people at least have a beacon. After all you can pick up the Pieps freeride for around 130 euros which isn't much.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
That's right. Nobody should be allowed to buy a shovel without a certificate.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
i'd be pretty wary about requiring certificates etc because this is how it will probably work:
1. the only people who bother to investigate this will be people who would probably take a course anyway OR experienced/knowledgeable people
2. people who haven't taken a course but would anyway aren't affected - fine
3. experienced/knowledgeable people find that all their experience/knowledge counts for nothing under the new regime so they have to waste time/money taking a course which doesn't tell them anything they didn't know already
4. the real reckless idiots take no notice or are blissfully unaware of all of this and continue to do stupid stuff
5. the police have better things to do than chase after a few idiots who ski off-piste recklessly
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
I think Jeremy Clarkson once said that the way to get people to drive carefully would be to remove seatbelts and replace airbags with big spikes. Maybe the answer for off-piste safety would be to remove rescue services, don't put out avalanche warnings etc.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
How would it be inforced, Are there ANY legally recognised Off Piste qualifications? I did my Avalanche training with the BMC while learning to Ice climb, would this count?
There certainly are NO legally recognised amatuer diving qualifications in the UK, so no shop could insist legally you provide them to buy or hire. There are legal proffesional qualifications (HSE) and qualifications issued by commercial companies (PADI, BSAC) and associations (SAA). Having worked in a dive shop and been a diving instructor for over 33 years now can assure you that shops may like to insist you are qualified (mainly so you pay them to go on classes they provide), but there are no legal restrictions on who can buy dive equipment or gas mixes for diving.
I think it will be insurance companies that set the rules when they start to insist that you have skills that THEY recognise. They will then set the level. It is insurance and liability that is setting limits on divers in the UK, Dive boat operators believe they will be show to be negligent if they dump a load of novice divers off on a 70m wreck, yet there is no law being broken if they do so
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Arno wrote: |
i'd be pretty wary about requiring certificates etc because this is how it will probably work:
3. experienced/knowledgeable people find that all their experience/knowledge counts for nothing under the new regime so they have to waste time/money taking a course which doesn't tell them anything they didn't know already
4. the real reckless idiots take no notice or are blissfully unaware of all of this and continue to do stupid stuff
5. the police have better things to do than chase after a few idiots who ski off-piste recklessly |
Regarding 3, that's why I would suggest a "equivelant test" for those who already done the training.
About 4, I disagree. There're many who would "occasionally" and "casually" goes off-piste when they saw others doing that. They're not reckless, nor idiots. But a bit ignorant for sure. It's those people that would be "saved" by the stricter requirements as a motivation to get educated and equiped.
But it wouldn't work without some sort of enforcements. Though the police wouldn't need to "chase down" the illegal off-piste skiers. Just waiting at some strategic points where they start or end their route. Imagine, you get a ticket, of which the penalty is €1000, or an option you may choose by sitting through an avi course for half! 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Bode Swiller, a cliche which is repeated by journalists every now and then and rather ignores what happens if someone else crashes into you...
And in fact if you look at the steering wheels of American cars in the 50s - with sometimes a huge central protrusion - they almost had spikes then - and a high death rate.
But you don't believe it either...
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Wed 18-02-09 15:53; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Am I the only one that thinks this is a little over the top? It does depend on their definition of "marked and secured ski runs" but I can't see that skiing inbounds on most 'sidecountry' requires full avi gear. That said, having seen idiots in Les Arcs this year traversing out when and avi risk of 4 is posted I can sympathise with the people that have to dig out the bodies of these guys.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| narc wrote: |
| ... I can't see that skiing inbounds on most 'sidecountry' requires full avi gear. |
I vaguely recall reading (on the HAT website perhaps) that the greatest number of avalanche fatalities happen near the piste, involving intermediate skiers without avy gear and little to no understanding of snow stability issues. If those statistics are true it would seem that skiing in the 'sidecountry' is exactly the place you need to carry the full range of avy gear.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| rob@rar wrote: |
| narc wrote: |
| ... I can't see that skiing inbounds on most 'sidecountry' requires full avi gear. |
I vaguely recall reading (on the HAT website perhaps) that the greatest number of avalanche fatalities happen near the piste, involving intermediate skiers without avy gear and little to no understanding of snow stability issues. If those statistics are true it would seem that skiing in the 'sidecountry' is exactly the place you need to carry the full range of avy gear. |
This may be true but as always everything is buried in proportionality. Lets say 50% of all piste users go "off piste", of these maybe 20% of the whole are committed offpisters with the gear & hopefully increasing knowledge while 30% are dabblers. The dabblers represent 60% of all off piste users so its not unreasonable to expect they get caught the most although they probably spend significantly less time out there.
Defining sidecountry is a challenge - anywhere you can get to or from the lifts within opening hours without external transportation can still get you a long way from "comfort".
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| rob@rar wrote: |
| I vaguely recall reading (on the HAT website perhaps) that the greatest number of avalanche fatalities happen near the piste, involving intermediate skiers without avy gear and little to no understanding of snow stability issues. If those statistics are true it would seem that skiing in the 'sidecountry' is exactly the place you need to carry the full range of avy gear. |
i always thought it was experienced men when the avalanche risk is 3
a lot of the time, although "between the pistes" will not be made safe, it won't be steep enough to pose a serious risk. similarly inexperienced noobs will often be skiing on low angle slopes which, themselves, won't be very risky, although they may of course be overlooked by something risky
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| Arno wrote: |
i always thought it was experienced men when the avalanche risk is 3
|
vaguely experienced 30-50 something geezers, yes... but beware the woman whose kids have just left home.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| davidof wrote: |
| but beware the woman whose kids have just left home. |
we are tallking powder hound rather than cougar here are we?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
First helmets for children in ski school, now this.
Italy I salute you.
Going through the same conundrum here on Hokkaido.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
I have to say this is a good thing. I've seen far too many people going out with no gear and little idea of the risks. Obviously you can't easily force people to learn how to use the gear, but having it is a start.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
IanH, welcome to snowheads
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
