Comedian and writer David Baddiel has a piece in The Times attacking skiing as an artistic vacuum. He reckons the sport has next to nothing to offer in terms of films and writing etc. and has essentially bred a culture of philistinism.
Here's a couple of key paragraphs in the article:
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Skiing is simply too - to use a naff word - naff for art. It's too middle-class, and it reeks too much of polonecks and people who think it's impressive to say the word Gstaad. Even on its home turf, it's had any chance of cool nicked from under its nose by snowboarding; which even if it can't boast much in the way of novels or films, has built up, around the sport, an enormous alternative culture
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I think it's time for a great artist to rescue skiing; to rescue it from the awful clothes and the Sunday supplements and the oligarch-infested bars and the Eurotrash discos and the posh chalet girls and the endless f***ing fondue
Has he got a point, or is there stuff he hasn't bothered to find?
Seems like he's never seen 'Sun Valley Serenade' or 'Fire and Ice' or 'Der Weisse Rausch'. 'Downhill Racer' was quite well received. 'Heroes of Telemark', though a bit over-long, wasn't bad as a wartime yarn. He mentions neither of these, though I'd concede that neither of them have become truly iconic.
What about fine art and literature? I think skiing has an astonishing history, maybe not always documented in a sufficiently thrilling way, but there is some quality writing around. We are, after all, rooted in a form of transport that precedes the wheel. In relatively recent times (to the stone age) there's been some quite good poster art, albeit commercial.
Maybe somebody should make a movie about the gold miners of California in the mid 19th century and their exploits on 'doped skis' - these guys had quite a substantial life and culture, in their own way.
Anyone have any views on this? Should ski resorts have a bit more to offer, artistically?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Sounds like he's calling for a 'Radical' Change. Maybe next year he might see one.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I think he is spot on
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sat 21-02-09 12:02; edited 1 time in total
David Goldsmith, your text doesn't inspire me to follow the link?
An errant question mark.
But I can see your point. He's thrashing about for cheap comedy points, but he's essentially arguing (which I should have emphasised) that other sports have delivered a greater cultural heritage.
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There is a clutch of Big Important American Novels about baseball, and a clutch of Big Important American Films about boxing; athletics has got Chariots of Fire and The Loneliness of The Long Distance Runner; swimming has The Swimmer (both the short story by John Cheever, and the classic Burt Lancaster movie); even wrestling, that most sham of sports, now has The Wrestler. But skiing? It's basically On Her Majesty's Secret Service, and that bit in Where Do You Go To (My Lovely), where Peter Sarstedt sings And when the snow falls you're found in St Moritz ...
I think his piece is worth a read (only takes a couple of minutes out of your gilt-edged time) because I think he's right to be this provocative. Skiing has surely underperformed as a culture, and exhibits rather superficial values.
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"This week, I have been skiing. This is a problem for me, in my role here at The Times, of cultural commentator. Because of all activities known to humankind, skiing is surely the most culturally bereft. Think about it. What, culture-wise, can you do while you ski? You can't read, you can't watch a movie, you can't write: you can't really - certainly not at my level - even have very complex or interesting thoughts, because they are blocked out by your mind screaming either BRRRRRR or AAAAARGH."
What sport can you do while reading, watching a movie or writting, COCK?!?
After all it is free
After all it is free
Quote:
Skiing is simply too - to use a naff word - naff for art. It's too middle-class, and it reeks too much of polonecks and people who think it's impressive to say the word Gstaad. Even on its home turf, it's had any chance of cool nicked from under its nose by snowboarding; which even if it can't boast much in the way of novels or films, has built up, around the sport, an enormous alternative culture
There will always be socially divided attitudes about snow sliding holidays whilst they remain relatively expensive and out of reach of the majority of Mr Baddiels 'supporters'.
I can't see that changing in the near future.
Last edited by After all it is free on Sat 21-02-09 12:03; edited 1 time in total
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I see Freestyle Skiing as an art, some of the stuff Sam Favret, Baptiste Causse, Martin Misof, Simon Dumont, Jacob Westner and maybe PK Hunder are doing at the moment as highly expresive.
brian
brian Guest
He's really talking about the intersection of Britishness (actually mainly Englishness) and skiing. To be fair he does have a bit of a point. Hang about Méribel or Les Gets for any length of time and you'll get where he's coming from.
... but the real point of the column is his (almost certainly well deserved) low ski self esteem, let's face it he's probably utterly shite. Easier to comfort himself with the notion that the whole sport is irredeemable than face up to just not being very good.
And he hasn't really done anything funny since "Pele was shite" and that was probably Frank Skinner's idea.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, on that theme you definitely need to dig out 'Fire and Ice' - Willy Bogner's full-length ski movie. It had very limited showing (the video version I have has a German soundtrack (possibly dubbed) but I think the stars spoke in English). The trick and ballet skiing in the film is fantastic.
Don't know if it's still on sale.
Bogner (apart from making astonishing skiwear) shot many of the key skiing sequences in the old Bond movies. He's an ex-racer and had the ability - almost unique - to ski at speed with a bulky movie camera.
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An artist / writer / film maker basing a piece within the world of skiing does not make skiing itself either more or less "cultural".
It happens that one of the most important contemporary painters, Canadian born Peter Doig, has used skiing / boarding imagery extensively in his paintings, though almost none of it was (for some reason) included in his recent big Tate retrospective. But of course the way he paints is what is important, not what he paints.
Another Canadian artist in 1968 had himself filmed skiing the first track down a powder field as a piece of conceptual art (something between performance and drawing).
I talked to John Berger a few years ago about his marvelous essay on riding his motorcycle and we agreed that there were big parallels in my experience of skiing. He encouraged me to write something similar on skiing and I did a first draft but never took it further. However this says nothing much about the cultural significance of either bike riding or skiing.
Downhill racer, as I remember it, was a film, but hardly art.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Sat 21-02-09 12:10; edited 1 time in total
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I think the article sucks big time, has nothing new to offer, just a 40 somthing ex - funny guy expressing his frustration and probably something else he's crap at as well as trying to be contreversial to stir up some interest in his tired and sorry ass. Perhaps he'll get an invite onto ski sunday to refresh his interest and make him eat his words. Won't that be superinteresting, not.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
So is Baddiel a cock or what?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
What's his age ..
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... just a 40 somthing ex ...
got to do with it? I'm pushing 56, for Christ's sake. I know people in their 20s who have all the vitality of a Jerusalem artichoke.
Baddiel's article has actually got plenty to say, if you search for the evidence he's been too lazy to explore and balance. One question for Baddiel is whether he's going to make the world's greatest ski movie or whether he's going to write the world's greatest ski book. On present evidence this is unlikely.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
....
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sat 21-02-09 16:21; edited 4 times in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
He may be a cock, but I daresay he's being paid a decent whack for writing the piece. There may be an artistic message there.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I have to concede it is interesting that there are plenty of thoughtful books by climbers about climbing, but right now I can't think of anything by skiers about skiing that goes much beyond journalism.
I do a bit of art and a bit of skiing now and then. Trouble is, if I do them together, my water colours tend to freeze.
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Ok chaps
1) David Baddiel has been quite funny in the past - and I do rate him as a cultural commentator. The week b4 last he was on R4 talking about John Updike's work and was erudite and interesting.
2) Skiing can be artistic - as SZK suggests in the freeride and freestyle elements. Experiences one has - in the mountains and challenging oneself can certainly be transcendent.
3) But Baddiel is spot on that for the most part skiing - as a group activity rather than an individual experience - is a culture and art-free zone - and none the worse for that.
4) I would suggest that there are some sports which have generated decent writing/art, Football, Boxing, Cycling - and some which haven't - Tennis, Golf, Rugby, Skiing. Perhaps there is a middle-class link there?
5) Marcus Brigstock - another middle-class southern comedian - does now run a comedy festival in Meribel - doesn't he? And all the acts are required to ski or board whilst they are there.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sat 21-02-09 15:04; edited 2 times in total
After all it is free
After all it is free
I don't care what David Baddiel thinks and if anyone really cares what Baddiel thinks, maybe they're into snowsports for the wrong reasons.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote:
So is Baddiel a cock or what?
Apparently not a complete one.
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Apart from a tome on the 'zen' of skiing or as DG offers, an historical text, skiing has little to offer culturally other than the destruction of indigenous mountain lifestyles. There are obvious bio-pic opportunities out there but historically that genre has always managed to mature the curd so far beyond ripely cheesy into curdled crap . . so forget that.
Skiing is insular, introspective and irritating to those that don't feel the draw the mountains exert on us. Baddiel is right, it is an artistic desert, but as all deserts do have, there are an oasis or few. These are rare and far between, occurring naturally within the development of human recreation and entertainment and since both are now maturing it's difficult to see how our sport can be anything but a sub-plot in any artistic endeavour.
There has to be a reason that (bad?) cheese recipes and skiing are synominous
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I think people should be very careful about what they write as they can cause offence even if they don't mean to. I am offended that someone called Baddiel a "comedian".
Smallzookeeper - yes!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Hang on, hang on, what about Dumb & Dumber and the bit with the tongue and the ski lift - was that not art?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
midgetbiker,
Yes, and Bridget Jones falling off the chairlift face first. Truly cinematography at its best.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:
the endless f***ing fondue
...he needs to broaden his horizons, most mountain restaurants also offer tartiflette and Raclette.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Talking about performing art the scene of a James Bond film where Roger Moore, in attempting to get away from the villains, skied over a cliff, kicked the skis away, opened a parachute showing the British flag and descended to safety has to be one of the most visually pleasing scene. For my money it beats seeing a painting of an old, fat, floppy, lumpy, naked woman that has taken over as a piece of art and sold for $33.6 millions.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:
You can't read, you can't watch a movie, you can't write: you can't really - certainly not at my level - even have very complex or interesting thoughts
So once again skiing (the act of) is quite like sex (the act of), although there is probably more comedy value in being bad at sex than being bad at skiing just because sex is more universal, and isn't that the problem? Sex. unlike horse riding or many other sports, is not something anyone can do at a whim with minimal effort or outlay, unlike reading, writing or watching a movie. I wont comment on it being a group activity, but good point made stoatsbrother
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
saikee wrote:
Only an idiot would confuse a sport with art and has the desire to read a book while skiing down a black run!
Football is probably many many times more popular than skiing but there are hardy books written on the subject as contribution to art.
Most football books are about football hooligans, which isnt something Im that intrested in tbh.
Isnt Badiel a West Ham fan? says it all really
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
saikee wrote:
Only an idiot would confuse a sport with art and has the desire to read a book while skiing down a black run!
Football is probably many many times more popular than skiing but there are hardy books written on the subject as contribution to art.
I don't think anyone suggested doing both at once. The capacity (or inability) of the people involved to do both was what was at issue.
As for the second comment: Nick Hornby's "Fever Pitch" (though that's rather a one-off).
As for the painting I couldn't get anything on your website. Was it the Freud painting? Wonderful artist and very impressive painting. "Visually pleasing" is a long way short of what is required from art. Some great art is quite ugly. Though, OK, it does please, in a sense, and it is visual (usually).
He's obviously not seen the this years Scott skis art work every where albeit of the modern variety and I suspect often inspired by adolescent male artists.
I couldnt give a s*ite what he thinks I like skiing and boarding so do millions of others art or no art. If I wanted art I'd go to a gallery, library or theatre.
I've never had fondue either but will make a point of getting one this year. Anyone know where I can get a good f*****g endless one. I guess their like the bottomless frozen youghurts at Nandos. All you can eat fondue hmmmmmmmm endless fondue. (which reminds me the Simpsons were skiing in a recent episode thats ski inspired art to me).
I'm not artistic does that make me a bad person Mr Baddiel? Thanks for pointing out my inadaquicies (probably spelt wrog but wht would I know I'm an ignorammus snow sports enthusiast who lacks artistic flair). I'll try harder next holiday to workon my reading and writing. Those carved turns and mogul lessons will just have to go on hold till next year.
Sorrys 's this post is badly structured (from a literrary poin of view) and sh@ite. Baddiel is right
Gotta go, got writer block just from thinking of my next ski trip.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:
"Skiing is simply too - to use a naff word - naff for art. It's too middle-class..."
So being or engaging in an activity deemed "middle class" precludes you from being the subject of art? I think plenty of literature, plays and films (aka art) have been made about "middle class" people and their activities. Or is he saying that being "middle class" precludes you from being interested in art
He's obviously not seen the this years Scott skis art work every where albeit of the modern variety and I suspect often inspired by adolescent male artists.
1 guy, young Cham Kid.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
SMALLZOOKEEPER,
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sat 21-02-09 18:15; edited 1 time in total
After all it is free
After all it is free
RPF,
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What about Wham's video of Last Chirstmas? Art just doesn't get any better than that!!?
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, Sorry I'll try again this writer block has extended to my key board skills
Quote:
1 guy, young Cham Kid.
Seriously??? Maybe I have a better eye for art than Baddiel led me to believe. Cheers man self estem on the way up again
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
's this post is badly structured (from a literrary poin of view) and sh@ite. Baddiel is right 
