 Poster: A snowHead
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Dug out of a thread about All Mountain skis.
Apparently a beginner learning to ski the piste on a 98mm ski, improving to become an expert during a 2 week period is to be put down to talent. Not conditions, fitness, determination, open-mindedness or indeed a smart choice of equipment. How can we be so sure?
How much of our progression is indeed affected by our needing to 'BE SURE' we are fitting a particular 'Model' in order to progress to the next.
"The king is in the altogether, the altogether, the altogether..................."
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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As most people are aware, the answer is, in fact, 42. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Some people must have some sort of natural ability and are therefore able to progress much quicker. Some people progress more slowly but that's probably more down to confidence and fitness with equipment and conditions playing a small part. Personally I don't think equipment is all that important in the early stages. Most beginners and early intermediates probably couldn't tell much difference between one set of skis and another...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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F E A R in the beginner is possibly the greater hinderance to progression rather than equipment.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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It's all about decent sausages...
Or the love of a good women. Anyone got 10p I can give to that lovely and many talented Lara Gut so she can call me when she's a little older?
But to be serious for once , and only once, it's about targeted practice and feedback - read Outliers or Talent is Overrated: What Really Separates World-Class Performers from Everybody Else - where considerable research effort has been put into the subject. "Native Talent" - whatever that is seems to have nothing to do with excellent performance.
I can see equipment holding people back though if it's making the task harder.
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Beginner to Expert in 2 weeks. F@*@ off!
If that were actually true, it wouldn't have mattered a toss what skis they used.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Fri 13-02-09 9:21; edited 1 time in total
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uktrailmonster, I met a Guy this week who was just back from learning to ski in Switzerland "by the end of Thursday I was doing the Blacks" 
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uktrailmonster, Ok, how do you define it, he had never skied, the to skiing the Pente du Hotel and the Glacier Rond. Define it as you will, i know many self professed expert skiers that will never get down the Rond. Did the whole season on a pair of Nordica Enforcers, oh and i did catch him skiing a pair of AC4 off piste in 60cm of fresh. So he did ski sub 90mm.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm a "armchair" expert at most things..... 
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Not read those, but read a little about sports psychology (mainly related to motorsport). From what I gathered talent is just a collective word for a mix of genetic & mental attributes, conditioning, training and obsession. The latter 2 are often overlooked when considering "talent". An observer might not be aware just how much obsessive time and effort a "talented" individual has put into reaching the highest level. It is often assumed they were simply born with the "talent". But studies of top sports pros clearly shows a history of very focused obsessive practice and commitment to their chosen sport, often from a very early age. In other words "talent" isn't something you are simply born with. You might be born with the right genetic mix, but it's just unlocked potential at that point.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| uktrailmonster, Ok, how do you define it, he had never skied, the to skiing the Pente du Hotel and the Glacier Rond. Define it as you will, i know many self professed expert skiers that will never get down the Rond. Did the whole season on a pair of Nordica Enforcers, oh and i did catch him skiing a pair of AC4 off piste in 60cm of fresh. So he did ski sub 90mm. |
A miracle?
Do you think a mere mortal could progress that quickly on Nordica Enforcers?
Given this immense and seriously rare "talent", do you think it mattered one toss what skis he happened to be on?
Or is skiing just a piece of p*ss anyway if someone can be classed as an expert after a couple of weeks?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Natural talent is key to fast progression in anything. Fitness, determination and lack of fear will certainly help in skiing.
But what is talent? Crudely speaking, it is the ability to do the right thing without thinking about it. For skill-based activities such as skiing (also relevant to cricket, tennis, golf etc.) it boils down to balance, fast reflexes, coordination, knowing what each part of your body is doing, and the ability not to tense up under pressure.
These skills aren't really specific to any one skill-based sport, which is why some annoying people appear to be naturally good at pretty much any sport.
At the top level, all competitors are very evenly matched physically, so the mental side of things is much more important. (Going back a few years, to the Moscow Olympic Games, Coe and Ovett were pretty much equal physically. Their respective results in the 800m and 1500m were entirely down to their mental state on the day. Coe won the 1500m because if he'd lost, his credibility / reputation would have been destroyed. In simple terms, he wanted to win more than Ovett who already had his gold medal from the 800m. On the other hand, the difference between the toughest club runner and an international athlete who always blows it on the big day is physical. The latter will always beat the former simply because they have far superior physical attributes.)
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Boredsurfing, Yes,which is why young males tend to advance quite quickly...the can have a decent mix of athletism and lack of fear. Now this doesn't mean they ski that well.... it is just that those attributes overcome...to a degree...things that would hold others back.
I wouldn't be too surprised if these people could be mostly parallel on easier pistes after 2 weeks. Talent or aptitude..??
But it is also true, IMV that most people can get some way to skiiing without having masses of lessons... They don't need to be told that one action needs to follow another and ski by numbers because they have this degree of aptitude.
Of course talent is a big factor tho' otherwise we'd all be champions ....
I fully expect an instructor to say they can get virtually anyone to ski well...they wouldn't say otheriwse, would they..? but talent is the defining factor, so being sporty helps.
Of course, what we might call talent and what the world class guys call talent are two massively uncomphrehensible things.
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You know it makes sense.
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Now we're talking.
uktrailmonster, Am then to consider myself talented for being able to carve and ski paralel from day one, or did i just listen, think and imagine, after people had explained to me before i tried to ski? Are we to suggest that for the most part people using forums are struggling talentless skiers, frustrated by the lack of progression and therefore desperatly looking for help thoughout the threads just to move forward?
I ask not to be critical but to better understand the forum social structure.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, a cursory viewing of people skiing in a popular resort in any given week will clearly demonstrate that most are pretty hopeless, myself definitely included.
People who can ski even looking vaguely like a pro or an instructor are about as rare as hens' teeth!
I don't know if the profile of forum users is the same as piste users though. I'd guess the forums attract a greater proportion of multi-week each year skiers than the pistes themselves though, who you'd think would have more talent than average, as people generally do things a lot optionally if they are "good" at them.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I have no real opinion on this topic, mearly interested in it's content from an industry point of view. Keep it coming................
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, I think you should consider yourself as a skiing god rather than a ski shop boot fitter 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The most important abilities that a once a year skier needs are as follows:
1 - Get boots that fit, and know exactly what sequence they need tightening up during the day. If you're too tight on the first run, your feet get too cold and hurt all day. Too loose once you've warmed up and the confidence gets shot by having (seemingly) no control on the first "red" of the day.
2 - Pick your terrain carefully. Some runs suit you more than others and a black in good nick is often much easier than a roughed up red but carries superior bragging right. (Note point 4 though!)
3 - Make sure no-one you know sees you fall over.
4 - Make sure you never subsequently ski with anyone to whom you've over-stated your abilities during a beery debrief of the day's activities.
With 1 - 4 mastered, you are as good as you think you are, it will be good fun and you won't curse your boots. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
Apparently a beginner learning to ski the piste on a 98mm ski, improving to become an expert during a 2 week period is to be put down to talent. Not conditions, fitness, determination, open-mindedness or indeed a smart choice of equipment. How can we be so sure?
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Because otherwise it would happen more often.
| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| Am then to consider myself talented for being able to carve and ski paralel from day one... |
Yes, you should most certainly consider yourself talented, in fact I'd consider your talent unparalleled.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| slikedges wrote: |
| I'd consider your talent unparalleled. |
Even if the skis never were...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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The Flying Snowplough,
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I should clarify that this was simply a play on words. I wasn't implying Smallzookeeper's claim isn't true. In a former life I was a rower, and some people row technically better on their first outing than others with months of coaching behind them. Some people are just annoying good at things.
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Ok, so my bias and vision does come from Chamonix, where 80% of skiers treat it as a sport rather than a leisure interest, perhaps Cham' just attracts these types, perhaps the town's social stucture pushes people to progress or get eaten, i don't know. I do know Cham is a strange place and so are many of the people in it. But all said and done, even the beginners learn super quickly, i see complete newbies skiing off piste, carving turns on the piste and this could be written off as talent. But i don't believe that. A quick stab at Pop Phsycology would see this is impossible. Some are geeks, some sporting gods, some rich kids, some dirt bags. Surely these things are too a part of these people. We rarely seeing a geek becoming a world class boxer, or a dirt bag excelling at fencing. Perhaps these things are socially driven??? My interest in your thoughts grows.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, no, my interest in yours. Come on then, just exactly how do I or my friend become an expert in 2 weeks? Just go to cham? Drink the water (or something else)? Breathe the air (or something else)? Ski the skis you say? Undergo the right psychomotivational training?
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slikedges, No idea, hense the thread.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| We rarely seeing a geek becoming a world class boxer |
True, but Terry Marsh went from a junior chess champion, via the Royal Marines, to undefeated light welterweight champion of the world.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I taught an absolute beginner last season, and he was on steep blacks and skiing in the forest by the end of the week, mind he had the huge advantage of being fit, fearless, and
10 years old.
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laundryman, The word 'Rarely' coming into effect here i would point out.
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You know it makes sense.
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There is a saying that if you want to be a top class sportsman, you need to chose your parents very carefully!
We all have different inherent physical potential which is genetic and comes from our parents. I call this natural talent. What we then make of this natural talent depends on life experiences and attitude.
For example, consider three kids of equal inherent physical potential. One might be born in Austria, be on a pair of skis at the age of two, and get masses of tuition from Uncle Ski Instructor and turn into Herman Maier's successor. One might be born in England and become a top class snooker player. The other might have a personality disorder and "wee wee his talent up against the wall" (To quote a phrase!) and end up in the corner of the pub claiming he could have been a contender.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, I don't think I even know who to call a good skier... Sure I've skied with much better skiers than myself but we can be ball-park comparable... in our little scheme of things.
And I think I know who can ski and what work they have put in... and I know how the scale up from others that I know but compare that to say, a real class skier, and there is a light years difference, and then compare them to top class and the difference just yawns. The more you know, the more you realise how far there is to go..... that is why most people who ski well, say, they a re ok...'cos they know how big the gulf can be..with other 'ok' skiers.
Something must set these people apart but it probably isn't the likes of me as a skier who can define it very well.
I played decent level of sports and I also played a decent level of music..and I was all self-taught... just watched and listened and grew all the bits together, ( This can be done with a bit of work ) but the best best best musical player by miles was a drummer....and I like to think I played with a few decent players... if I blew this trumpet, and even I could see he was a god compared to us.......
Whatever it was that he had..he had IT..he could make the drums talk and make a corpse move. It is no surprise to me that he now plays at the top level in the UK as a sideman in demand, At the time, he was a young guy just passing through...
We should all be happy with our level..within reason, so we don't stop trying to improve, but there are people who can do things we just can't hope to do in a million years....with all the training or lessons in the world. They start at a much higher level from almost day one that we spend years trying to get to...
I recall a thread here about someone who asked  's if they would like to meet a World champion skier.... and the response here was not worthy of the man turning up...   I was aghast at this indifference.. I would have loved to hear him tell a story of the sacrifice he put in to win his Gold... and to see him ski would have been an education in itself....
How many chances do we have to get that close to someone who has been at the top top top of his game..? I regret not meeting him 
Sorry about the waffle, but I am v tired....great thread tho'.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| laundryman, The word 'Rarely' coming into effect here i would point out. |
Which is why I said your statement was true.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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So nurture being a factor?The Flying Snowplough,
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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JT, Thanks dude. Due to my new venture i find this topic super interesing. We are currently preparing to conduct a series of tests on our athletes to better understand the Talent factor, the mental factor, dedication and all the Psycho stuff, will be super interesting, but less so if we can't understand the end user and the differences between them.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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And you rarely (if ever) see a world class boxer who doesn't train obsessively hard. You need the right genetic makeup (physical and mental characteristics), you need the right social and environmental conditions, you need to train and practice intensely, you need to be totally committed. If you miss any of those things you are unlikely to be perceived by others to be extremely "talented". I would consider "raw talent" to mean someone with a favourable genetic makeup and the right environmental conditions, but without the training and committment.
"Cham" would provide favourable environmental and social conditions to nurture a "raw talent". It would also likely attract people with favourable genetic characteristics and ambition to go there. Similar to Jackson Hole or any other ski resorts with a gnarly reputation.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| We are currently preparing to conduct a series of tests on our athletes ... |
I like the sound of that. Be sure to reassure them that they won't have to supply samples.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, The other thing is that in sports as opposed to some forms of music, for example, you have a defining measuring point... so you can say that that person was the best on the day..sure, he may have had a few lucky breaks but that is all part of it...you might need that one missing piece to make the difference against the other top guys on that particular day...
That is why they say that anyone in the top realm...however that is defined, can win on 'their' day...
In some spheres of music that I was involved in, a lucky break couldn't so easily be defined...
example...how can Cheryl Cole be a judge about musical talent when ..apart from her looks...you'd squirm if she sang in your local pub...a bit harsh, but not far off...
So, it is easier for chancers to get a break in that 'talent' pool..and i use the word talent very tentatively...
In top class sports, as [b]uktrailmonster[/b says, it is not enough to just have the one thing going for you..lots of talent at that level is a given, you need so much else.
Gazza was a genius (IMV ) because he saw things that others players couldn't see.... and he could hardly string a sentence together so certainly wasn't going to explain it. That to me is GOD-given talent..that sets someone apart from all the other top class guys in the field. And you don't see the likes of them in a generation or two
P.S I use the words guys as generic... of course, this applies to women as well, IMV
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| JT, Thanks dude. Due to my new venture i find this topic super interesing. We are currently preparing to conduct a series of tests on our athletes to better understand the Talent factor, the mental factor, dedication and all the Psycho stuff, will be super interesting, but less so if we can't understand the end user and the differences between them. |
We attempt to do this with potential (and actual) F1 drivers. Without going deeply into it, we find that they don't score exceptionally well on simple objective tests eg. reflex, balance, reaction etc. You would certainly never pick them out from such tests. You might eliminate a few people who are hopeless at such things, but nothing more. For example reaction times between a top level F1 driver and a bloke on the street are generally the same. You only start to see how good they are when you start getting into more complicated exercises involving a lot of multi-tasking under severe pressure.
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| We are currently preparing to conduct a series of tests on our athletes |
Who are these athletes (in general terms)? How many of them are there? In what sense are they "yours"?
Just curious.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| So nurture being a factor?The Flying Snowplough, |
Indeed.
In any sport, the top performers are naturally gifted physically, so it's nurture (and mental attitude) that splits the champions from the also rans.
At a lower level someone might be good because they have a lot of talent but little experience or they might be good despite having little talent if they've worked really hard.
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So pressure, the old devil and stress levels are important. This is interesting as it's relative to each person.
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FAQ
