 Poster: A snowHead
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Just curious. Was chatting to some friends about the avalanche in Lee canyon that killed a teenager on the chairlift. They both said that they always wear transceivers regardless of where they are skiing.
I wondered if anyone else did this. Would it make a difference to you skiing in Europe v skiing in Canada or the U.S?
If you carry a transceiver do you also carry shovel, probe and inclinometer all the time as well?
I dont have one so dont carry one in bounds. I hire one if I need it.
Dave
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Pointless. The chance of being consumed in an avalanche on piste (or within the normal lift-served patrolled area of a resort) is extremely remote. In 45 years skiing I've skied across avalanche debris on a piste only about three times.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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David Goldsmith, nothing since, but on my first day's skiing in Orcières Merlette there was a slide that came to a halt most of the way across a run I was skiing. Took me a while before I realised that it wasn't going to be a regular occurence!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Slightly related, but in La Plagne recently we were on the Meleze chair out of Plagne Centre and they were clearing a car park in Plagne Soleil and tipping over the edge of another car park. A ball of snow of about 1.5 metres cubed rolled down the hill out of the tipper truck, about 30 metres through some trees and luckily hit a the last tree, where it stopped dead. A tiny piece about half the size of a washer broke off and continued its path 30 metres further and stopped at the feet of 2 very brown panted skiers who had stopped for a chat. As I siad not related, but very dangerous
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The avalanches I've seen on piste (and obviously there would have been others where the ski patrol have closed the run in the face of a known danger) have been shallow - probably capable of injury, but certainly not burial.
The avalanche which Dave J refers to - where the boy was killed about 9 days ago - has led to the resort being shut down while a safety audit takes place. It's a very exceptional incident, and shouldn't cause anyone any concern about on-piste avalanche risk generally.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Anyone advise on how to delete a duplicate post. have tried edit/delete button but without success
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I don't except if I am staying off piste. I do remember avalanche debris on piste many years ago at St Anton. Really large frozen lumps. Could have injured anyone in the way, I guess. But wouldn't have buried.
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Frosty the Snowman, Once someone else has followed up your answer then you can no longer delete - you need a mod to do it for you.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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PG, I still have a Parka, but the Lambretta went years ago.  Many thanks for the deletion
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Hmm, if you own a transceiver what is the point in not wearing it? Costs you nothing except the occasional battery. Unless I'm restricted to skiing on 2-week-old frozen hard-pack where the off-piste is too rocky to be usable (like last week!) I usually wear mine.
A transceiver is not just for you (apart from those transmit-only cheapies, and no-one should buy those); you might be skiing well within a safe area yourself but see someone caught by a slide - you'll be no use to them if your bleeper is in the car.
As for avalanches on the piste being shallow; it's not true (I've seen a 2m deep slide go half way across the Blue run down to Pre St Esprit from Arc 2000) and, in any case, you need very little depth of snow to be trapped and suffocated in.
Play safe - if you go off-piste regulary then buy one (they cost less than a decent pair of boots), and if you've bought one then wear it!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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J2Dave, did that avalanche occur at a time that the Pre St Esprit run was open?
Avalanches will be blasted or occur naturally, sometimes inevitably crossing runs. The important test of a ski patrol is whether they are professional enough to predict the danger and deal with it by closing the run first.
A ski patrol which allows the danger to strike without warning - as at The Canyons - may need its safety procedures reviewing. Which is what has been going on at The Canyons.
Transceivers are not really the issue. That boy certainly wouldn't have been saved if he'd been wearing one.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Tue 18-01-05 13:38; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Like J2Dave, I wear mine and take the other gear all the time. How do you know that you won't be going off-piste? Maybe if you're skiing with beginners, or it's a white-out, or the avalanche risk is 5 and all the high lifts are shut, or you're skiing with an injury and don't want to push it, but the rest of the time....it's what skiing is all about!
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You know it makes sense.
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| Dave J wrote: |
| J2Dave - I'm with you. |
Are you by any chance related? 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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David Goldsmith said
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The avalanche which Dave J refers to - where the boy was killed about 9 days ago - has led to the resort being shut down while a safety audit takes place. It's a very exceptional incident, and shouldn't cause anyone any concern about on-piste avalanche risk generally.
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I did not mean to spread panic and alarm! 
I dont think I have ever seen an avalanche on piste whilst its in use. I did have in mind those interesting little off piste bits you can find to marked pistes.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Simple Answer here. If you've got a transceiver, wear it, where ever you are when playing in snowy mountains. Otherwise you're a fool !
Avalanches happen where ever there's snow. Fact. Transceivers are far from Pointless on or off piste !!!!
Carrying Transceivers, shovels and probes may mean the difference between finding your best mate, kid, wife or girlfriend alive or digging them out dead. Being prepared may make that difference. If you're serious about your sport carry the right equipment. It makes sense.
I've seen at least 5 falls across pistes, Verbier, Les Menuires to name a few.... they do happen. It's false to say they only happen off piste. I remember one in Azamer Lizum in Austria taking a wooden "school pack lunch hut" down the mountain and spitting it out rather crushed... Luckily nobody was in it at the time. Didn't one take out a restaurant recently and kill the owners ?... I can't recall where though...  What about the scouts in Scotland that were killed a few years back... even the experts get it wrong.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Sorry to disappoint the shovel and probe industry, but a day's skiing on piste (with maybe a few skirmishes into the deep) won't involve me carrying either.
One has to look at the avalanche risk for a start. If a low risk is indicated, who wants to carry all this stuff around?
Obviously if one is going to spend most of the day off-piste, especially if one is in the grey area between 'safe' and 'madness', it's good to have these devices.
The only skiers I know who are caught in avalanches are caught because they skied risky slopes. This is not a dangerous sport, in relative terms! (confirmed by the insurers).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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David, yes the Pre St Esprit run was open at the time - it was early afternoon and was the first "fresh" (5 mins before we got there) slide of any size I'd seen close up. The obvious solidity and weight of the debris made a considerable impression on me - avalanches are not soft, light and fluffy; it was like concrete. I doubt anyone could move if they were more than a dozen inches below the surface of something like that.
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
If a low risk is indicated, who wants to carry all this stuff around?
.... The only skiers I know who are caught in avalanches are caught because they skied risky slopes. This is not a dangerous sport, in relative terms! (confirmed by the insurers). |
As I said before - it might not be you who's caught - a number of last seasons fatalities occurred within yards of open pistes (one poor soul on a favourite pitch of mine at La Balme, La Clusaz - right next to the piste).
It's no big deal carrying a pack and the extra weight of a shovel and a probe are negligible.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
| A ski patrol which allows the danger to strike without warning - as at The Canyons - may need its safety procedures reviewing. Which is what has been going on at The Canyons. |
David Goldsmith, I thought this was out of bounds so not patrolled.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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In the last 15 years I've had three close calls with Avalanches, two of which were definitely on piste or on a controlled ski route. One in Kleinwalsertal and one in St.Anton (Schindlercar). Both of those were not just small slides but could have buried anyone caught in them. As a result of those experiences I now always carry a transceiver.
If you speak German then here is an interesting web site which lists all the recorded avalanche accidents in Austria in 2000/2001. http://www.alpinesicherheit.at/tmp/tmp/lawinenereignisse_in_oesterreich.htm. You can see that there are quite a number of incidents on piste. By luck no one was killed in those incidents, but I do recall at least two occasions in St.Anton where people have been killed on-piste. One was on the Albona, when a woman was buried in an avalanche triggered by someone skiing off piste above her, another was in the Galzig area (I think) when a four year old child was buried.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Mike Lawrie, quite, the "Swiss Federal Institute for Snow and Avalanche Research" report 70 odd people completely buried in avalanche through the 90's on open roads or pistes, there's not much difference in effect, they're both controlled. I also recall an incident in the mid/late 90's in the Tarentaise with some English fatalities.
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| ise wrote: |
| I also recall an incident in the mid/late 90's in the Tarentaise with some English fatalities. |
You recall right. Val Thorens on the 2nd Saturday in November 1992 I think. I was skiing there that day with two friends. It was on the Beranger piste and killed 7, mix of English and Dutch. It snowed heavily all day and there was very little in the way of piste patrol and very poor visibility. We called it a day around 2.30pm when a friend broke his rear binding because we thought the conditions, even on piste, were not safe.
The director commented that more people die each day on the road in France.
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| davidof wrote: |
| ise wrote: |
| I also recall an incident in the mid/late 90's in the Tarentaise with some English fatalities. |
You recall right. Val Thorens on the 2nd Saturday in November 1992 I think. |
I know I do, I knew one of the people who died.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| ise wrote: |
| davidof wrote: |
| ise wrote: |
| I also recall an incident in the mid/late 90's in the Tarentaise with some English fatalities. |
You recall right. Val Thorens on the 2nd Saturday in November 1992 I think. |
I know I do, I knew one of the people who died. |
To be honest I doubt wearing transceivers would have changed the outcome given the size of that slide. There was also a slide a couple of years ago that killed a girl in the Jura. The trial of the piste director was recently held and PG posted some information at the time.
(note: Val Thorens is of course, in the 3 Valleys/Vanoise and not the Tarentaise)
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Of course there's evidence of fatalities and injuries of people who have been hit by avalanches on piste, but the statistical risk is quite negligible. I really can't see why we're discussing it here.
What we need to be concerned about are the low-skilled ignorant and reckless skiers who cause collisions on piste (a mobile phone will be more useful than a transceiver) and the gung-ho lunes who go off-piste completely oblivious to the danger they cause themselves and the people around or below them.
Not to mention the massive imposition on the rescue services they can cause.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| ... avalanches on piste...I really can't see why we're discussing it here. |
Er, I think it's because the thread is titled "Transceivers - anyone carry them on piste/in bounds"...
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| ... collisions on piste... |
...yes, just as important but that's in a different thread...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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That opens another question: have transceivers ever been what they're cracked up to be? In the shock and confusion following an avalanche the search for victims is very unlikely to be an orderly affair. In the mad mass of debris, spread across a mountainside, is anyone going to find you before you suffocate?
A bright-coloured trailing avalanche cord, tied to your body with a directional and distance marking could help someone find you in the critical 15 minutes after you're buried. What chance that a companion, probably part-trained in searching with a transceiver, will achieve that result?
I hid a transceiver in my back garden and invited a north American distributor of a famous transceiver brand to look for it. This was in pre-digital days, though he's a very experienced ski tourer. He took almost 30 mins in those benign conditions.
I believe avalanche cords are a far superior and simpler method on the strength of these authoritative words from the mid-1960s:
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| ...your chances of staying alive...can be enhanced still further by taking a few simple measures. The most important of these is to wear an avalanche cord. This is nothing more than a red cord about 30 yards long and about 1/4inch in diameter. You tie one end round your waist and leave the rest like a long tail. The principle is that part of the light cord will remain on the surface if you are buried by an avalanche. The rescuers find the cord, pull it out of the snow until it goes down vertically and then dig you out. It is cheap, simple and has saved hundreds of lives. |
(Colin Fraser 'The Avalanche Enigma', John Murray publishers 1966)
That last sentence - from a very thoroughly researched book - is significant.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Wed 19-01-05 19:09; edited 3 times in total
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You know it makes sense.
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David Goldsmith, I have seen cord in use only once - back country from Saas Fee, last year. A father was connected to his 2 sons - they were not with our party. Our swiss guide did not think it a good idea. Anybody here tried it?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Nick, I believe there's a whole professional movement who believe in this electronic stuff with no proper scientific basis. The avalanche cord has been consigned to history for no reason whatsoever. What is the success record of the transceiver in relation to the avalanche cord?
Tying yourself to your kids is pretty pointless. The idea is to have each person independent, hopefully with several left on the surface after an avalanche, ready to search. Maybe he was tied to his kids with some fear that they were going to slide off down the hill and he had them on a leash!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
That opens another question: have transceivers ever been what they're cracked up to be? In the shock and confusion following an avalanche the search for victims is very unlikely to be an orderly affair. In the mad mass of debris, spread across a mountainside, is anyone going to find you before you suffocate?
A bright-coloured trailing avalanche cord, tied to your body with a directional and distance marking could help someone find you in the critical 15 minutes after you're buried. What chance that a companion, probably part-trained in searching with a transceiver, will achieve that result? |
I think that there is something like this around. Its a sort of balloon/airbag on the end of a piece of rope. It can be stored in the hood or neck of your jacket and somehow inflates at the right time and in theory ends up on the surface of the snow after an avalanche. Rescuers follow the cord to the victim. I saw a couple of people with them last year in La Thuile.
Laundryman - I'm not related to J2Dave as far as I know!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Slightly confused from the differing opinions at the start of this thread, coupled with my own ignorance...so:
In an ideal world should everyone carry a transceiver?
Its not an ideal world so I would suspect only more advanced skiers/guides/instructors/patrols carry them?
Presumably if a mere mortal such as myself went out and bought myslef a transceiver would that help me or anyone else - presumably there is some kind of training you need to use it effectively (whether you are a victim or a searcher?).
And is it true to say that its pointless carrying a transceiver if you're not going to carry the probes/shovels etc.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Dave J wrote: |
I think that there is something like this around. Its a sort of balloon/airbag on the end of a piece of rope.
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http://wa.slf.ch/unfaelle/unfallstatistik-en.pdf might be of interest.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Wed 19-01-05 20:17; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Dave J wrote: |
I think that there is something like this around. Its a sort of balloon/airbag on the end of a piece of rope. It can be stored in the hood or neck of your jacket and somehow inflates at the right time and in theory ends up on the surface of the snow after an avalanche. Rescuers follow the cord to the victim. I saw a couple of people with them last year in La Thuile.
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On reflection, the idea of having a long piece of rope in the vicinity of my neck whilst tumbling in an avalanche is not appealing. The danger of strangulation must be as great as that of suffocation. Probably why you dont see too many around!!!
Ise
Thanks for the link. Thats what it is. Will try and find a picture of one.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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David Goldsmith, I take the point that what you are proposing was different from what I saw. Yes, it did seem even more risky than "Alpine" roping a la Whymper. Not sure I would want to do awy with wearing a transceiver, though. Have you talked to guides/mountain rescue about that?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Adrian V
I'm no expert, which is why I asked the question in the first place. Analogue transceivers do need regular practice to use them effectively. Digital ones are easier to use, but I believe have a shorter range. (Someone correct me if I'm going wrong).
I
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Presumably if a mere mortal such as myself went out and bought myslef a transceiver would that help me or anyone else - presumably there is some kind of training you need to use it effectively (whether you are a victim or a searcher?).
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If you went out and just bought a transceiver it would help searchers find you if you got buried. You could also find the general vicinity ofpeople who had been buried, but without a probe to pinpoint them and a shovel to dig them out, that would be about it.
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| And is it true to say that its pointless carrying a transceiver if you're not going to carry the probes/shovels etc. |
Depends on how selfish you want to be!  , but generally the three go together. Another essential bit of kit is an inclinometer to measure slope angle. As far as I can remember about 40% of avalanches occurr on slopes with an angle of 37 to 39 degrees.
The best compromise is probably the Recco reflectors which you can stick on your boots or keep in a jacket pocket.
However, the real truth is that the best thing to have is enough knowledge not to get into the situation in the first place.
And as David Goldsmith said at the begining of this post, avalanche casualties in resort are pretty rare.
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| Dave J wrote: |
| Adrian V....And as David Goldsmith said at the begining of this post, avalanche casualties in resort are pretty rare. |
He said "on-piste", not "in resort".
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| Dave J wrote: |
I think that there is something like this around. Its a sort of balloon/airbag on the end of a piece of rope. |
The avalanche ball looks like a quite interesting extension of the old avalanche cord idea. I was discussing the device with the French importer NIC-Impex on Friday. So far there are no cases of anyone's life being saved thanks to this device but it is not in widespread use. The ball is a collapsable, spring loaded affair. I have some film of tests carried out by the Swiss and in their controlled avalanches the ball does stay on the surface.
However if we look at accident statitics for last year for France of the 4 people found thanks to visual clues only one was recovered alive. The figure for avalanche transceivers is 42% (5 out of 12 deaths) and this is much better than waiting for a probe or dog search. So statistically an avalanche transceiver is a good idea - but then statistically you have a fair chance of dying in an avalanche anyway.
The one device that could make a difference is the ABS system which keeps you on the surface of a slide. It won't prevent you being injured due to trees, rocks or cliffs. But this device is around 500 to 700 euros depending on the model so you have to make a cost benefit analysis. For the piste patrol at l'Espace Killy who are using the system this year I can see the benefit, they are exposing themselves to risk on a daily basis but for occassionaly skiers there are maybe other measures that are more cost effective.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Dave J, thanks for the response, thought nobody had seen the question!
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Seeing the thread is heading off into a more general safety equipment discussion, it seems a good time to ask if anybody uses or has experience with the avalung 2.
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