 Poster: A snowHead
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I may have mis-understood....
I've just seen in another thread about a different technique that may be being taught in Swiss ski schools.
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=49056
It was referred to as 'shoulder rotation' and it was suggested that this may not be a good habit.
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| where their official progression includes shoulder rotation to initiate the turn and throughout the turn. |
I'm going to a small Swiss resort later this week. I'm holidaying with an 'aspiring intermediate' and two kids (6 and 9 years), so i'm a little concerned. Is there anything that would indicate it is the method being taught where we are going? Does it have skill name?
I have noticed a tendancy of one of them to, in effect, initiate a turn by punching the lower arm into the turn, and over rotate. On a recent lesson in Val Thorens the Prosniege instructor spent a good amount of time reminding 'us' to face down the slope. Are there any instructor types out there who can provide any input on this?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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BMF_Skier, it (hopefully) shouldn't be much to worry about. During the MSB both myself and easiski were a little suspect of how a lot of the instructors in Wengen were teaching (I'm sure some others were equally bemused). As far as I am aware though, this is quite a localised peculiarity.
What I saw were a lot of instructor led drills that centred on initiating the turn with the upper body (rotation). Now, I know that it can be useful to purposefully do something in a wrong manner to feel why you shouldn't do it (more in a race training environment than an instructing one though), but this was too frequent a sight to be this, it was definitely being taught in what is widely accepted to be the wrong manner.
Even though there's been a shift to reduce the 'counter-rotation' (i.e. how much you keep your body facing down the fall line) it is still the way turning should ideally be taught, especially at the beginner/intermediate level.
The way you'll know it is being taught is if they put an emphasis on the body turning into the turn. The drill I saw involved an aeroplane type stance - quite common, but not as used here. The instructors would initiate the turn by turning the upper body, arms outstretched, to the left to start turning left and to the right to start turning right. The legs would then follow. Ideally, the legs should lead and the upper body should follow. As a couple of kids in my group a few weeks ago found out, it you turn with the upper body, you are far more likely to over-turn, lose your balance and fall over (particularly in parallel turns).
I'm sure someone will be along soon to explain it slightly better than I have. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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BUT THEY TEACH TO ROTATE THE SHOULDER.....OR JUST WATCHING THEM LOOK LIKE???? CAUSE CAN BE ALSO A MISTAKE ......HERE THERE ARE A LOT OF INSTRUCTOR SKIING WRONG.......DIFFERENT IS IF THEY EXPLIN TO DO THAT........BUT IF IT IS JUST WHEN WE CARVE AT HIGH SPEED....IT IS ALMOST CORRECT......IT IS AN OPTICAL EFFECT......CAUSE AT TOP LEVEL FOR BE 50% ON BOTH LEGS WE NEED TO HAVE THE SHOULDER PERFECTLY IN LINE WITH THE DIRECTION OF THE SKIIS.........SO CAUSE THE SKI IS TURNING LOOK LIKE WE ANTICIPATE WITH THE SHOULDER........
BUT AT LOWER LEVEL THAT IS WRONG.......BECAUSE AT THAT LEVEL OR YOU OPEN SNOUPLOUGH OR THE SKI SLIDE WITH THE BACK.......BUT WHEN YOU RACE THAT HELP A BIT......OR BETTER THE SKI GO FAST....CAUSE THE WAIT IS PERFECTLY SHARED BETWIN THE TWO LEGS........
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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lungostyle, yep, but these were beginners just coming out of a snowplough. We have also been told by someone who was working with the school that year that it was indeed how they were being trained to teach.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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THEY GET CRAZY......ANIWAY FRO COMPETITION IS ALMOST CORRECT.....FOR LOW LEVEL NOT......WHEN YOU ROTATE YOU PUSH OUT YOUR HIP.....AND THAT OPEN THE SNOUPLOUGH ALSO IF YOU DON'T WANT.......BUT PAY ATTENTION CAUSE IN THE RACE THEY WINS A LOT........SO MAIBE THEY ARE CHANGING THE TECNICS....LIKE HAPPEN WITH ALBERTO TOMBA.......IN THE BEGGING WE NEED TIME TO UNDERSTAND......
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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lungostyle, quite, technique is always evolving. Good instructors can repeat a book well, the best instructors are always asking questions and trying to understand, not just know.
| skisimon wrote: |
| there's been a shift to reduce the 'counter-rotation' |
I agree, like you say, that this shift is a result of what we are seeing in racing, where the body follows the legs, as opposed to deliberately counter-rotating to face downhill.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sun 8-02-09 21:14; edited 1 time in total
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BMF_Skier, it was discussed a bit in this thread when Megamum talked about some of the instruction she was getting. My advice would remain the same if you or she was being taught to actively steer by swinging your shoulders around.
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rob@rar, She's the very same 'aspiring intermediate' ! I hadnt seen that thread nor talked to her about it. It does explain why her shoulders over rotate.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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BMF_Skier, yes, I knew who you were referring to. There's no need to rotate the shoulders, in fact it just makes things worse and could be setting up ingrained movement patterns which will cause a lot of problems in the future.
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I been a while trying to work out how I feel about this 3rd party thread discussing my skiing technique in my absence. It's an odd thread to read when you haven't been party to its existence until several hours after it was first posted. I received good instruction both times in VT and now understand the error of my ways. I will do the best I can to eliminate the arm swing technique. I just hope the group lessons the kids have been getting from the younger instructors there will not have been as out of date as the instruction I received otherwise they will really struggle in VT at Easter.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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BMF_Skier,
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On a recent lesson in Val Thorens the Prosniege instructor spent a good amount of time reminding 'us' to face down the slope.
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On a recent week of lessons in Courchevel, the instructor spent a good amount of time reminding me NOT to face down the slope!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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but when.....on the fall line is correct.....but if your skies are in traverse line you haven't to face down.....but if your level it is not hight can be a way to cancel other more important prioblem.......
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the instructor spent a good amount of time reminding me NOT to face down the slope!
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face the line of momentum, ie where the body is travelling. if you are going very fast in a straight line your shoulders should be in perpendicular to your skis, if you are going straight down the fall line in a narrow coulior your shoulders should face down the slope as that is the direction your body is travelling.... this involves more counter, make sense?
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You know it makes sense.
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skimottaret, erm, not sure. He appeared to be trying to eradicate counter-rotation. I'm not clear as to when counter-rotation remains useful (if at all.) The instructor seemed unimpressed with my argument that, if I was doing short turns on a steep slope, facing downhill - even if my skis pretty much reached a right angle to the slope at some stage on each turn - actually enabled me to pick a good path/retain a general idea of where I was going!  (I clearly haven't got this concept cracked yet - more tuition definitely required. I find this hard to intellectualize in abstract, and need to feel it on the snow.)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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the counter rotation like you call it is usefull when you carfve.....so high speed ....in a narrow coulioir normally we don't carve.....we use a steiring action of our feet....is for that in the narrow gully we face down.....if you carve you gonna die.....so there we slide more and the work of the feet is more important.....more difficult than carve.......depend from the sense of your feet......in slang we say that we have intellingent feet.....mean they feel the snow and they can adapte the pression for make sliding gently.....need a lto of practice......carve is easy......you put the skis on the edge and you wait.....short turn on step much much harder........
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Poster: A snowHead
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lungostyle,
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in a narrow coulioir normally we don't carve.....we use a steering action of our feet....is for that in the narrow gully we face down.
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Yes, that's the sort of turn I meant. And now I read skimottaret's post again, I think that's what he meant as well. I think that perhaps I got a bit confused in my lessons between that sort of turn, where it is legitimate to face downhill, and carved turns in which you should face, pretty much all the time, the direction in which your skis are travelling.
One point: for someone who learned 'old style' on straight skis, those short, foot-steered turns are easier than carving! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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in fact.....who lear with strith skis is normally abetter skier.....you can bring him everywhere......but believe me it easier for you learn to carve....than the opposite for the new skiers to learn the steer......
old style forever.......I'm 40 years hold.....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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lungostyle, 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I'm trying to get my hands on Swiss instructor course material. Until then, I am mostly inclined to believe the shoulder rotation turn initiation is something specific to Wengen Ski School, not Switzerland wide.
Also, the austrians, the swiss, the french, the british ski in different styles. Where the austrians use quite a bit of 'counter rotation' the french do less so.
lungostyle, stay calm please. Take your time reading and writing in english to avoid misunderstandings...
And avoid the CAPITALS, its considered shouting when online.
| Ronald wrote: |
| easiski, I'm not sure the shoulder rotation nonsense is Switzerland wide. Was told as close as Gstaad (from Wengen point of view) things were very different... |
I worked for Wengen... And honestly I don't agree with the way they work.
But i did learn a bit of the why... And Its broken, but the idea is to learn people to turn as quickly as possible... The whole idea is created assuming 95% of people will only take lessons up to the point the rotation-initiation will make them hit a ceiling.
As for the french teachers who supposedly all have rather decent qualifications... I was disapointed. Saw one do exersizes that makes little babies cry as much as Wengens weirdness.. Saw one loose a child, saw more then one ski in 220cm ski style...
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 9-02-09 1:36; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Ronald,
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will make them hit a ceiling.
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hmm, that puts a different gloss again on which way you're supposed to be facing.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Ceiling as in getting stuck in the learning process, until the rotation is unlearned 
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Ronald, yes, I understand. I was attempting a joke!
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Hurtle, just makign sure.... this forum thing lacks so much voice intonation
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Had the worst lesson in the world at Wengen at last year's MSB. Don't know what qualifications he had but was definitely of the "shoulder turning" mentality. Haven't a clue otherwise what he was trying to teach us or why. The whole thing was just a complete waste of time. (Oh, it wasn't Ronald  .)
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maggi, What was his name/describe his looks?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I believe his name was LJ Silver. He was a tall chap, wavy dark hair, a bit shady looking. He had a scar on his right cheek (or was it his left?) and only had one eye. He had an obvious limp when out of his skis and seemed to be talking in tongues - either that or he was murmuring something to the parrot he had on his shoulder for some reason.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Ah - so this is where the counter-rotation is being discussed! I think lungostyle has a good point, if I understand it correctly, that persuading people to "face zee walley" (as my first instructor told me in Norway in 1963) can help them NOT to do that defensive turn away from the hill (with downhill arm swinging up into the air) which puts the weight on the uphill ski. That's presumably why we all did that exercise where you hold your two poles between the hands, face them down the hill, and keep them there whilst turning the skis beneath them?
Like Hurtle, I've recently been taught to stop countering, or at any rate not to do it all the time. Perhaps those of us who learnt during a particular era just do it too much, when it's not necessary or appropriate? And in my case I think it contributes to the dreaded A-frame. But I do find myself doing it on steep slopes (dive down the hill?) where it does seem to help get the turn in quickly.
I don't blame megamum for being a bit peeved about a third-party discussion of her skiing, incidentally.
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You know it makes sense.
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maggi, I was in the office when admin was arringing things.... I have a rough idea, rather disapointing he didn't manage to give you a good lesson....
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Teaching shoulder rotation is a shortcut to nowhere. Sure it's a very effective way to horse the skis quickly around into a new turn and avoid that scary acceleration into the falline sensation. But it's a technique that really doesn't need to be taught, as most new skiers learn how to do this crude type of turning on their own as a defensive survival tactic. And it sticks with them, holding back their progress, and stalling them at a low intermediate level of skiing, until they somehow learn or are taught more refined turning techniques. Rotary turning with the upper body also ensures a persons turns will contain a pivot. Pivoting is the nemisis of the intermediate skier, and from day one teaching objectives should be to help students eliminate it,,, not to introduce drills and turning techniques that promote it.
Also, when talking about counter, be sure to differentiate between COUNTER and COUNTER ROTATION. Counter is a position in which the pelvis and upperbody point toward the outside of the turn. Counter rotation is a turning technique in which the upper body is twisted one way while the skis are twisted the other. Counter and arc to arc skiing go well together. Counter rotation results in pivoting.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I brought this up on Epic a couple of years ago:
http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/56877/angulation-what-is-it#post_728816
I personally am not a huge fan of the Swiss inclination/rotation method.
But there are as many different ways to ski as there are skiers, and as many different ways to teach as there are instructors.
And four medals from four events so far is rather hard to argue with...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I dont want to appear to critisise any qualified instructor (after all I still need all the advice I can get) nor anyone using this technique. 
There must be a reason why its taught. It appears to be used to get a quick fix for learning to turn. Is there a further step later on that builds on this to enhance ski-ing skills?
Over the years I've seen some strange techniques being used to get a skier over a hurdle. I've been on the receiving end many times! I must be real bad! My concern is the issue of this being taught as a key step in the early weeks, if it has, as has been suggested above a detrimental affect in later progression. After all, what you learn first stays with you a long time!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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yes but I don't think will be possible to teach carving before snowplough?!?!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I was taught to ski in Switzerland and was indeed taught to turn my shoulders
but I also find .....
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...... four medals from four events so far is rather hard to argue with...
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Not noticed US or France in there
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I can understand if a different teacher brings different ideas to the table, that might confuse...but surely once you have the basics, you just adopt the ideas that you like...and can get to work. MAybe not in the lesson, but in your freeskiing.
Failing that, stick with the teacher you know and never move beyond that.... but you hope you have good one..
There many ways to ski, IMV...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
Pivoting is the nemisis of the intermediate skier
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But also something we need specifically to learn at some stage? I share the confusion of some of the other punters here. For example, I have a Phil Smith video called "Ultimate Control" which includes an exercise where he jams his poles horizontally into his pelvis, to stop it rotating, and then swivels the skis like windscreen wipers, going down a gentle slope. Keeping his upper body absolutely still, and facing down the slope. Given my weakness in getting my skis round rapidly when required (I am actually becoming quite good at carving, on a good day and the right slope) this is an exercise which I aspire to do correctly. Should I stop trying to do that? And what about turning the skis in the air underneath you? Not something which I, as an old age pensioner, have the stamina to do more than once in a blue moon, but because of the way our bodies work it isn't actually possible, surely, to do this without countr-rotation?
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| JT wrote: |
| I can understand if a different teacher brings different ideas to the table, that might confuse...but surely once you have the basics, you just adopt the ideas that you like...and can get to work. |
I agree, that's the wonder of skiing for me. But swinging the shoulders is not one of the basics. It's just trouble, which ever way you look at it.
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FastMan,
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Also, when talking about counter, be sure to differentiate between COUNTER and COUNTER ROTATION. Counter is a position in which the pelvis and upperbody point toward the outside of the turn
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Sorry, when I said
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the instructor spent a good amount of time reminding me NOT to face down the slope
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I meant 'counter', not 'counter-rotation' that was my mistake, I've never been taught to swing my shoulders round, and don't do so. But I think I was being told not to counter at all, and certainly not on arc to arc turns, in which you say counter is useful.  And, like Pam W, I find it invaluable when I'm actually intending to pivot on a steep slope.
Oh dear, I've thoroughly confused myself now. 
[Edited for 'clarity' ]
Last edited by After all it is free  on Mon 9-02-09 11:07; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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So "counter" is what you do in javlin turns?
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| pam w wrote: |
| So "counter" is what you do in javlin turns? |
Yes.
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FAQ
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