 Poster: A snowHead
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Two experts in sports medicine have made new points concerning the recent safety promotion of ski helmets.
Karl-Heinz Kristen, vice president of the German-Austrian-Swiss Association for Orthopaedic-Traumatic Sports Medicine, claims that there is no adequate protection above 20 km/h (12 mph). However, he says they make sense for patrollers, instructors and other professional skiers. His colleague Erich Altenburger has criticised coaches of the Austrian ski teams for not wearing helmets.
This report from Wiener Zeitung.
At what speeds do you believe your head is at risk?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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As a benefit to fellow snowHeads, and purely for research purposes, I had an altrication with a fellow snow slider last week.
It was pretty impressive.
It was pretty violent.
The closing speed would have been interesting to calculate.
We both survived.
However, both helmets had "battle scars" as a result and one subject complained of feeling dizzy shortly afterwards. I'm pleased to say the matter was resolved amicably by both combatants who later shook hands and wished each other well.
I'm not so sure that would have been the case if only one, or neither, were wearing helmets.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I see there's a website promoting ski helmets:
http://www.snowhead.co.uk
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About Us
We are a small and hopefully friendly business. There are currently 4 people at SNOWHEAD. We started trading online in 2002 and have been selling cashmere knitwear and pashminas though www.mypashmina.co.uk since then. |
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Weird choice of domain - one mistype and you could end up, well, here.
Worse still - I could mistype snowheads and end up there talking about helments - and may not notice I was in the wrong place 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Boris, 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Instead od arming people with more kit to survive a 'hit', stop the speed on the hills... cut down on the number of fast lifts putting more people in the same place etc etc ...but people/resorts would rather have the £ or Eu's in their pockets from more punters and accept the attrition rate...
The worst sight on the hill is a nutter or nutters going too fast for their skill...and being fortified by wearing kit that might save them an injury...
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If you fall at 50 mph, but your head only has a downward velocity of 12 mph the helmet will provide a lot of protection.
The 12 mph figure is a straight-on sudden stop hit, not a glancing blow.
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I would still wear one, it keeps my head warm anyway
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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even if it protects me from a bruise or a small weird injury, i will still be satisfied and happy i bought one. oh yeah as chrisb said: it warm too 
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I know what i would be wearing if someone hit me/or falling on my head at whatever speed, helmet v woolly hat no contest 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| JT wrote: |
Instead od arming people with more kit to survive a 'hit', stop the speed on the hills... cut down on the number of fast lifts putting more people in the same place etc etc ...but people/resorts would rather have the £ or Eu's in their pockets from more punters and accept the attrition rate...
The worst sight on the hill is a nutter or nutters going too fast for their skill...and being fortified by wearing kit that might save them an injury... |
Ill keep it simple and say, shut up.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| JT wrote: |
Instead od arming people with more kit to survive a 'hit', stop the speed on the hills... cut down on the number of fast lifts putting more people in the same place etc etc ...but people/resorts would rather have the £ or Eu's in their pockets from more punters and accept the attrition rate...
The worst sight on the hill is a nutter or nutters going too fast for their skill...and being fortified by wearing kit that might save them an injury... |
i started wearing one as a consequnce of an idiot snowboarder taking me out from behind and knocking me off the side of a piste at st anton fortunately only in to a pile of slush.
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You know it makes sense.
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My g/friend fell whilst skiing and her heed hit the ground so hard the ear piece came off the helmet. As far as Im concerned the helmet did the job!
Everyone should wear them
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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David Goldsmith, that article makes almost as much sense as the Telegraph's one on avalanches.
The statement that:
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| a helmet provided adequate protection of the head only when the speed of a skier’s collision with an immovable object was no higher than 20 kilometres an hour - slower than speeds reached by most skiers. |
is clearly misleading, if not sensationalist. A skier's speed isn't the issue - it's the deceleration force caused by the impact.
Ghost certainly has a better grasp of the physics.
Given the choice between a 30kph collision directly into a lift pylon or a 60kph fall when carving on a 25 degree slope then I'll take the carving fall - you're far more likely to walk away.
Personally, I've had 5 accidents where a helmet has saved me from more serious injury than I sustained. In at least one of the cases I know that I wouldn't have walked away from the accident without the helmet - by sliding cleanly and smoothly of the snow it prevented sudden deceleration.
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Poster: A snowHead
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sps89, who are you..?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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JT, (s)he's certainly rude... JT, I'm with you
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| JT wrote: |
Instead od arming people with more kit to survive a 'hit', stop the speed on the hills... cut down on the number of fast lifts putting more people in the same place etc etc ...but people/resorts would rather have the £ or Eu's in their pockets from more punters and accept the attrition rate...
The worst sight on the hill is a nutter or nutters going too fast for their skill...and being fortified by wearing kit that might save them an injury... |
I'm with SP on this one, that is a ridiculous comment. If you're so unconfident about your ability that a person overtaking you frightens you, stay off the piste. I would rather see someone with confidence going fast down a piste, then someone who has no confidence going slowly on the piste.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Timmaah,
I don't read it like that at all.. I think speed is the big danger from people who can't ski well and some big resorts are imfamous for this. Look at the carnage on 4 o'clock runs. People should ski within their limits which a lot patenttly can't do.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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JT,
I get what you mean (I think).... There are some nutters out there who ski too fast and are certainly a liability to another skier. This will never, ever change. just think of how many driving laws there are (plus a police force to impose them) and then how many of these laws are broken....
BUT... that is just something to expect when skiing - that is one of the many risks (the same as a nutter driver on the road).
I think
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cut down on the number of fast lifts putting more people in the same place etc etc ...
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it is a bit of a crazy idea.
The speed of the lifts is irrelevent as it is purely relative to the number of people on the hill. It doesn't matter if that lift is fast or slow, there will still be the same amount of people about... maybe just some more at the bottom of the hill waiting for the slow lift... already to bit knocked down like skittles by the nutters!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
The speed of the lifts is irrelevent as it is purely relative to the number of people on the hill. It doesn't matter if that lift is fast or slow, there will still be the same amount of people about... |
Not entirely true, though a lifts capacity is determined not by speed, but by carrier spacing and capacity, a slow quad chair at 2m/s with a carrier spacing of 6s would have 3 times more people actually riding the lift than a HSQ running at 6/ms with a carrier spacing of 6s. Uplift capacity the same, but fewer people on the piste at the same time with the slow chair.
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JT, agree to disagree.
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true... so best get in that long wait for the lift and get less skiing in which will probably force the 'nutters' to go even faster!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Timmaah wrote: |
| JT wrote: |
Instead od arming people with more kit to survive a 'hit', stop the speed on the hills... cut down on the number of fast lifts putting more people in the same place etc etc ...but people/resorts would rather have the £ or Eu's in their pockets from more punters and accept the attrition rate...
The worst sight on the hill is a nutter or nutters going too fast for their skill...and being fortified by wearing kit that might save them an injury... |
I'm with SP on this one, that is a ridiculous comment. If you're so unconfident about your ability that a person overtaking you frightens you, stay off the piste. I would rather see someone with confidence going fast down a piste, then someone who has no confidence going slowly on the piste. |
That is a very elitist comment, and also would of course mean that nobody new could ever learn to ski.
Yours is the ridiculous comment, I'm afraid.
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| flangesax wrote: |
The speed of the lifts is irrelevent as it is purely relative to the number of people on the hill. It doesn't matter if that lift is fast or slow, there will still be the same amount of people about... maybe just some more at the bottom of the hill waiting for the slow lift... already to bit knocked down like skittles by the nutters! |
As a general rule (although there are exceptions of course), faster lifts tend to be higher capacity lifts too.
Chairs will usually be roughly the same distance apart on the cable, so faster means more chairs pass in the same time - although there is a limit as to how close together they can be in time for loading/unloading, so that effect is not as pronounced as it might be.
But you also find that most fixed grip chairs are 2 or 4 man (plus the occasional 1 or 3), while almost all detachables are 4 6 or 8, so even with the same time gap, the larger average chair size will mean more people.
But I agree it is the hourly capacity that matters more than the raw speed.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Timmaah wrote: |
| JT wrote: |
Instead od arming people with more kit to survive a 'hit', stop the speed on the hills... cut down on the number of fast lifts putting more people in the same place etc etc ...but people/resorts would rather have the £ or Eu's in their pockets from more punters and accept the attrition rate...
The worst sight on the hill is a nutter or nutters going too fast for their skill...and being fortified by wearing kit that might save them an injury... |
I'm with SP on this one, that is a ridiculous comment. If you're so unconfident about your ability that a person overtaking you frightens you, stay off the piste. I would rather see someone with confidence going fast down a piste, then someone who has no confidence going slowly on the piste. |
Timmaah there's confidence and there's competence.
I was skiing on the Brevant area of Chamonix today. There were plenty of people who scared the hell out of me as they overtook me. They were undoubtedly confident as they slid wildly out of control, but given their complete lack of control of speed or line then I had huge issues with them skiing the way they were.
Before you ask, I'm a very good skier and very confident. I can ski as fast or faster than anyone I saw today. One person found that out to their regret because I chased them down when they nearly took out the friends 5 year old child that I was skiing with to help build her confidence.
Everyone has the right to go slowly if they choose to.
You only have the right to ski quickly if you can control your speed; respect other slope users and follow the FIS code (control your speed, overtake safely, etc)
And no. I showed no respect when I overtook, stopped and berrated the idiot.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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FlyingStantoni, you're right. I agree with you. But that doesn't mean that isntead of getting protective gear everyone should ski slowly because a select few are unable to compose themselves.
Alex.. bunny hills, green pistes and to an extent blue pistes. If people who don't know what they're doing are on red and black pistes they deserve to get a punch in the face when they come to the bottom of the hill.
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| flangesax wrote: |
JT,
I get what you mean (I think).... There are some nutters out there who ski too fast and are certainly a liability to another skier. This will never, ever change. just think of how many driving laws there are (plus a police force to impose them) and then how many of these laws are broken....
BUT... that is just something to expect when skiing - that is one of the many risks (the same as a nutter driver on the road).
I think
| Quote: |
cut down on the number of fast lifts putting more people in the same place etc etc ...
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it is a bit of a crazy idea.
The speed of the lifts is irrelevent as it is purely relative to the number of people on the hill. It doesn't matter if that lift is fast or slow, there will still be the same amount of people about... maybe just some more at the bottom of the hill waiting for the slow lift... already to bit knocked down like skittles by the nutters! |
The more people waiting in the lift line, the fewer people on the slope.
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You know it makes sense.
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Ok....
you guys best head for the busiest areas with the slowest lifts and longest waiting times to ensure your on piste safety.
Me....
I will pop out down the road and choose one of the many areas within Ski Amade (that has fast and high capacity lifts), not get stuck in a line and enjoy a great day with loads of runs and space! (There will still be some nutters about with or without protective gear - i know that as I have been skiing before and it is an unfortunate risk involved in the sport - so wish me luck  )
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Timmaah wrote: |
Alex.. bunny hills, green pistes and to an extent blue pistes. If people who don't know what they're doing are on red and black pistes they deserve to get a punch in the face when they come to the bottom of the hill. |
Yo didn't qualify it before by mentioning any grade of piste.
But TBH, that is irrelevant. Whatever the level of piste, when people are reaching the point where they can ski that level, and need to do so in order to progress, they are certain to be somwehate nervous the first few times.
In the early stages of learning at any level, you will be skiing close to the limit of your abilities, and it won't take much to worry you.
I would hope that anybody on any level of piste will only be attempting it when they have the ability to control their speed and direction, but they have a perfect right to ski as slowly as they like, and be as nervous as they like.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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JT, people seem to think they are in control when sking fast just because they are actually going fast, linking turns and not falling, but in reality if another slope user did a quick turn into their path/line then it is unlikely that they would be able to stop or avoid that person with out having to do something drastic and potentially dangerous. I suppose it is a bit like driving on a motor way and getting close to the car in front of you, yes you are in control of your car but you will not be in control if the car in front breaks quickly because you just do not have the reaction time to stop.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| Timmaah wrote: |
Alex.. bunny hills, green pistes and to an extent blue pistes. If people who don't know what they're doing are on red and black pistes they deserve to get a punch in the face when they come to the bottom of the hill. |
Yo didn't qualify it before by mentioning any grade of piste.
But TBH, that is irrelevant. Whatever the level of piste, when people are reaching the point where they can ski that level, and need to do so in order to progress, they are certain to be somwehate nervous the first few times.
In the early stages of learning at any level, you will be skiing close to the limit of your abilities, and it won't take much to worry you.
I would hope that anybody on any level of piste will only be attempting it when they have the ability to control their speed and direction, but they have a perfect right to ski as slowly as they like, and be as nervous as they like. |
In which case the people who ski fast have as much right to ski as fast as they like. Both of them, the slow and fast, have the possibility of threatening injury to others before you throw that arguement at me.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Timmaah wrote: |
| alex_heney wrote: |
| Timmaah wrote: |
Alex.. bunny hills, green pistes and to an extent blue pistes. If people who don't know what they're doing are on red and black pistes they deserve to get a punch in the face when they come to the bottom of the hill. |
Yo didn't qualify it before by mentioning any grade of piste.
But TBH, that is irrelevant. Whatever the level of piste, when people are reaching the point where they can ski that level, and need to do so in order to progress, they are certain to be somwehate nervous the first few times.
In the early stages of learning at any level, you will be skiing close to the limit of your abilities, and it won't take much to worry you.
I would hope that anybody on any level of piste will only be attempting it when they have the ability to control their speed and direction, but they have a perfect right to ski as slowly as they like, and be as nervous as they like. |
In which case the people who ski fast have as much right to ski as fast as they like. Both of them, the slow and fast, have the possibility of threatening injury to others before you throw that arguement at me. |
Whatever speed you ski, you must make sure you aren't going to hit anybody else, of course.
Which means fast skiers do NOT have the right to ski as fast as they like unless there is plenty of room, or they are VERY good skiers in complete control (but I suspect very few of the latter would be so inconsiderate as to "buzz" other sliders).
I'm not quite sure, but I rather think your last comment is implying that you think there is some realistic comparison between the danger posed to others by a slow skier and the danger posed to others by a fast skier. Which there really isn't.
Sure, a slow skier still has the possibility of threatening injury to others, but it is a very much lower possibility than that of the high speed skier.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Axsman, A skier who is going slowly on a black piste, loses control, skis fly off and slides down the hill uncontrollably (this happens so often its unreal) poses a much bigger threat than a fast skier on the same black piste. The fast skier has control, the once slow skier does not. This was my point in respect to slower skiers posing as much risk as fast skiers.
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Timmaah, Tosh.
A skier who is going fast down a black piste, loses control, skis fly off and slides down the hill uncontrollably (This happens so often its very real) poses a much bigger threat than a slow skier who did the same thing only , slower. Comparing a falling slow skier to a non falling fast skier is ridiculous.
The key (which we both appear to agree on) is control, or lack of it. Out of control skiers are dangerous to themselves and everyone else. it's self evident that the faster they are travelling the more energy they are carrying, the longer it takes them to stop, and the more severe the consequences of any impact.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| JT wrote: |
| The worst sight on the hill is a nutter or nutters going too fast for their skill...and being fortified by wearing kit that might save them an injury... |
Ha ha... that sounds like me on my mountain bike! Thing is, i had pads on and still broke my kneecap!
I fear all this helmet debate is going to go on for all of time... it's a personal choice (unless of course a ski area were to turn round and say you can't use our lifts unless you wear a helmet) and there's no right and no wrong. If certain skiers spent less time worrying so much about what equpment they would be using (that includes helmets) they could probably devote more time to learning to ski properly and hence be able to avoid the crash in the first place.
I'm not going to say wether i wear a helmet when skiing or not...
All i can see from all of the helmet "chat" that goes on is that the discussion itself instills fear into skiers (especially newcomers to the sport) who think that if they don't have a helmet, they are going to die as soon as they fall over.
For that reason, I think helmet talk should be banned and, i'm out! 
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| Axsman wrote: |
Timmaah, Tosh.
A skier who is going fast down a black piste, loses control, skis fly off and slides down the hill uncontrollably (This happens so often its very real) poses a much bigger threat than a slow skier who did the same thing only , slower. Comparing a falling slow skier to a non falling fast skier is ridiculous.
The key (which we both appear to agree on) is control, or lack of it. Out of control skiers are dangerous to themselves and everyone else. it's self evident that the faster they are travelling the more energy they are carrying, the longer it takes them to stop, and the more severe the consequences of any impact. |
Except, a skier who is going fast down a black piste would be more competent (lets assume this) and thus would have a much higher din than the slower beginner, so the skis wouldn't fly off and he wouldn't slide down the hill uncontrollably.
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FAQ
). A lovely lady at Ventura in St. Helens was most helpful but I just didn't fancy those available in my size. Oh, what to do 
the pistes are just too busy for the speeds that some seem to want to hurtle down the slope. If the piste is empty ski fast, if it is busy put some hard carved turns in....... or just avoid resorts frequented with large numbers of Brits who think they can ski like an expert because they are now on their 8th week of skiing and have found Snowheads or SCGB 
