 Poster: A snowHead
|
Reflecting on Daniel Albrecht's disastrous crash in training at the Hahnenkamm last week, Richard Williams of The Guardian takes the view that downhill racers are "... the bravest of all modern sportsmen and women. Or perhaps just the maddest."
Comparing ski speed events to Formula One and motorbike racing, Williams says "... downhill racing is perhaps the last of the major sports in which mortal danger remains a constant companion."
His article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2009/jan/26/daniel-albrecht-richard-williams-column-kitzbuhel
Is he right?
Is this comparable level of risk - if he's right - a crisis for the sport?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
David Goldsmth, If skiing was to be 'invented' today, Elfin safety would have it banned immediately, if Ski racing was invented Elfin safety would go into meltdown 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
1. I'm not at all sure he is right. While the risks may be minimised as much as possible in F1 etc., they have not been completely eliminated, and there are oter sports such as steeplechasing which also have a non-neglible risk of serious injury or death.
2. Whether he is right or not, why would that be "a crisis for the sport"?
If too many serious injuries are occurring in particular spots, then attention obviously should be given to making those spots safer if possible, but that is mere tweaking, not crisis management.
High level competitive skiing probably does inherently carry a higher risk level than most sports, simply because of the very high speeds reached with very little protection. But that has always been true, and is no reason to consider it to be a "crisis".
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
There is obviously considerable risk. If they don't already, I think the racers themselves should have a say on safety. If they had a say, maybe they would be wanting that final bump in the Hahnenkamm to be removed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
I think alex_heney makes a good point about tweaks being the simplest way to minimise the inherent risk on certain 'blackspots' on a course. I enjoy the danger aspect of ski racing (watching not participating  ), much like I enjoyed the crashes in F1 in the 80s and 90s, but too much of it does make you look at the validity of a sport.
As for the F1 reference, motor racing in general has changed from being a sport where blokes in tin cans with a massive engine went around a breakneck speeds wearing nothing but a leather helmet and a big grin, to a sport where safety not only for the driver but also for the spectators and the actual machinery is paramount. It's evolution of technology that we now see safety cocoons and rollcages but unfortunately, there's not much you can do to protect a bloke in lycra on a pair of skis without fundamentally altering the whole basis of the sport. A car with a roll cage is still a car and won't be affected by the safety device – a skier in a bubble would look cemdeic and just wouldn't be practical…
I don't think ski racing is on its own as a sport for the mad or the brave though. Yes, it's one of a few sports that puts the participant in mortal danger from the minute they take off (like DH mountain biking, rally driving) and would be ruined if too many H&S practises came into play, but isn't the only thong that will kill you. It just makes you wince that little bit more when something bad happens because you know lycra will do nothing to stop a chaffed backside...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
achilles, I doubt it. most of the racers do the sport for the thrill and the challenge (i would guess as the money's not that great comparitively)
i absolutely love the hahnenkamm for that very reason as a spectator and it's probably in my top 5 sporting events of the year. Tone it down and it's just another downhill some of which are insufferably dull
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
fastandicy, I agree that coping with the risk is part of the sport. It maybe that nothing should be changed - but if anything needs to be, I think the racers themselves are those best placed to decide. I see no crisis, btw.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Braver than free climbers or serious alpinists? I think not.
Some of the most boring to watch - yes
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
achilles, In that case, i believe we may be in agreement
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The article undermines itself by highlighting that the last similarly serious crash at that point was in 1987. Once every 22 years is hardly damning evidence!
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
I reckon boxing is more dangerous and requires more courage - they go in to the ring in the full knowledge that another highly trained athelete is going to do their damndest to hit you in the head hard enough to lay you out.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
fastandicy, yup. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The only thing Downhill Racing has in common with F1 Bikes is Speed.
I do not not think you can compare Downhill Racing with F1 or Motorbikes as those sports have a third party failure/mechanical factor (The machines) . Also, Horse riding you have an unpredictable 3rd element (Horse)
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| xyzpaul wrote: |
| The article undermines itself by highlighting that the last similarly serious crash at that point was in 1987. Once every 22 years is hardly damning evidence! |
Well the article is wrong then. I'm pretty sure Scott McCartney had an almost identical crash at exactly the same point last year.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| xyzpaul wrote: |
| The article undermines itself by highlighting that the last similarly serious crash at that point was in 1987. Once every 22 years is hardly damning evidence! |
Twice in successive years is though.
The thing is, they often make slight alterations to the course, and I thnk it may just be that the cumulative effect of minor chnages has bene to make the whole course take that bit more effort, so they are reaching that final dangerous jump that bit more tired.
fastandicy, I think having such a difficult jump right at the very end of a tiring course is really a little bit much. "Toning down" that jump a bit isn't going to make any difference to the overall spectacle of the run, there is still plenty of difficulty - and danger - before that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
alex_heney, most of the racers in Saturday's downhill seemed to handle that jump OK. It was only those who let their tips drift up had any problems with getting too airborne. Has the profile of that jump been changed over the years, or is it a case of higher speeds meaning mistakes are more costly?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Quote: |
I doubt it. most of the racers do the sport for the thrill and the challenge (i would guess as the money's not that great comparitively)
|
They got $ 40,000 for one nights work in Moscow last month and Svindall made somwhere in the region of €250,000 last year not bad money in my opinion.
I think the big thing with racers is the respect they get back home most of the resorts have a popular business run by an ex race hero. I do thing they are all stark raving and must have reflexes like a cat
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Ordhan wrote: |
| Quote: |
I doubt it. most of the racers do the sport for the thrill and the challenge (i would guess as the money's not that great comparitively)
|
They got $ 40,000 for one nights work in Moscow last month and Svindall made somwhere in the region of €250,000 last year not bad money in my opinion.
|
$250K sounds pretty good to me, but compared to a lot of sports that's really not that brilliant for someone who is at the top of their game.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
A couple of weeks pay for a top footballer.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| rob@rar wrote: |
| alex_heney, Has the profile of that jump been changed over the years, or is it a case of higher speeds meaning mistakes are more costly? |
Have a look at Klammer in 1984 and compare with Albrecht this year. It looks to me as though that final jump was virtually non-existent in the earlier Klammer clip. Bode Miller complained about the last jump last year saying that racer safety was being compromised in order to give the spectators in the grandstand an exciting finale.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Hywel, I noticed there are a lot more safety netting now than in 1984
A lot of the stuff at the top was just picket fence not what you want to hit at speed
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
Svindall made somewhere in the region of €250,000 last year not bad money in my opinion. |
Not bad although he also had a major injury and that impacts on his earning potential and he hasn't regained his form yet. For one of the top five skiers, €250,000 is small money compared with other sports. Also you must consider what they miss out on by being skiers regarding career progression in other jobs. If you are Austrian you are OK as it's a big sport there but if they was a UK world champ they might struggle to capitalise on their achievements.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| rob@rar wrote: |
| Has the profile of that jump been changed over the years |
My understanding is that the profile of the jump was changed this year after Scott McCartney's crash last time. However, it seems it is still too dangerous if a skier makes a mistake at the speeds they travel at.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
So don't make a mistake then. Sorry it seems simple and at 80+mph its not simple but they are the best so they got to deal with it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| halfhand wrote: |
| So don't make a mistake then. Sorry it seems simple and at 80+mph its not simple but they are the best so they got to deal with it. |
It doesn't matter in the least if you are "the best".
It is unacceptable to have a course which is unnecessarily dangerous, and they should not have to "deal with it"
If a small mistake at the point where you are most tired is likely to result in very serious injury, and the risj of that could easily be lessened by fairly minor modifications in the course, then it should be modified to reduce that risk.
You will never eliminate risk entirely of course, and it should not even be a target to do so. But the most likely effect of a mistake should generally be that you lose the race, but are able to race again next week.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
So what happened to Albrecht? Was he tired? Was he not tired at the end of previous races? Did he make a mistake due to tiredness, technique or what?
How many racers on the DH? How many were tired? He was unlucky IMV, it was not his day and he knew the risks. I hope he makes a speedy recovery.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
The problem I see with the jumps on downhill races, in Kitzbühel and elsewhere, is that when it goes wrong the racer lands on a concrete-like piste at great speed from a considerable height. That often means serious injury. There are other dangers in downhills but, if someone goes off the course, they mostly are caught in netting which is designed to absorb some of the forces involved. That sometimes helps. The piste isn't forgiving at all.
As an aside, the jump effect must be similar to what happened to the man who managed to land his car in the roof of a church yesterday http://www.sueddeutsche.de/panorama/420/456090/text/. That driver obviously didn't "absorb" the bump!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
So should they artificially freeze the piste prior to racing? Would it be less risky and more acceptable to let the skiers race on a normally groomed piste? When Klammer was in his pomp in the 70s I bet there was none of the technical snow preparation that goes on nowadays.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| halfhand wrote: |
| So should they artificially freeze the piste prior to racing? Would it be less risky and more acceptable to let the skiers race on a normally groomed piste? When Klammer was in his pomp in the 70s I bet there was none of the technical snow preparation that goes on nowadays. |
That is a very good point.
That preparation does make the course more consistent, so it isn't quite as important where in the start list you are, and it also (as intended) makes the course a fair bit faster.
But as espri says, it does also mean that crashes where you hit the prepared area mean you are hitting a very hard surface, usually at very high speed. Which is not conducive to walking away. And it probably makes the courses a bit less forgiving in the first place, so increasing the likelihood of crashes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
last time i watched weren't nobody chasing them down the hill or pushing them out of the start hut, they all course inspect, are all pros and all choose to be. Would this punter charge down the hill like that?? hell no! (actually that last jump would never get me cos i wouldnt get down that far, it'd probably tits-up about 10 yards outta the hut!)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
It is safer with the prepared, ice injected pistes - which is one of the (many) reasons why they do it. You can see the pandemonium that is caused when even a small amount of fresh snow falls on the set course just before the race...
Why is Kitz special? A race needs an x-factor to be the race of the ski season. There is only one WC race I actually want to attend, and Kitz is it - not just the final jump though, the awesome atmosphere looks phenomenal.
You've got to be completely bonkers to race DH anyway, and bonkers people prefer things to be as bonkers as possible.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
I'm flying to Salzburg tomorrow and staying in Zell am See and Saalbach, should I go watch the downhill in Garmish on Saturday or ski for the day? I am an avid ski race fan but I am thinking me skiing like Bode is more fun than watching him, however if someone has a VIP access all areas pass I think I'd change my mind!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Peter Ross, go to Garmisch, watch a bit of racing and ski a bit? I've been to Val d'Isere for a few of the races there. Even though it's much less busy than the classic downhills there is a good atmosphere down the course and at the finish, and it's good to see the racers do their stuff up close (I got to say hello to Bode one year). After watching the racing for an hour or so I then skied for the rest of the day.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Peter Ross wrote: |
| I'm flying to Salzburg tomorrow and staying in Zell am See and Saalbach, should I go watch the downhill in Garmish on Saturday or ski for the day? |
It's about 220 kms from Zell to Garmisch, about a 3 hour drive! I would ski - there's fresh snow
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Quote: |
If you are Austrian you are OK as it's a big sport there but if they was a UK world champ they might struggle to capitalise on their achievements.
|
I suspect there would be massive opportunites for a UK world champ and good luck to them as well I agree it takes major cojones to do downhill.
I don't know if it is the most dangerous sport though, I seem to recall a significant number of fatal accidents and broken necks in three day eventing over the last few years.
There are a huge amount of major injuries in steeplechase as well.
Not trying to diminish downhilling, guts must be a significant part in all three and it's possibly a little facile trying to state that one requires more than another.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
It definitely isn't either the most dangerous sport or the one with the greatest chance of mortality I would think. As had been mentioned before jump racing is incredibly dangerous with many jockeys breaking bones every year, and the odd one getting killed. It's a long time since a DH racer was killed although several have been severely maimed. However the jump that McCartney and Albrecht fell at is artificial, and was just a little hump before. It's been built up to give the crowd a thrill - I would have thought seeing people flying down to the finish line at 140kph would be enough of a thrill personally.
Anyone who gets the chance to go to a race should deffo go. It's nothing like the telly, it's faster, louder, steeper and icier and totally thrilling.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| halfhand wrote: |
| So should they artificially freeze the piste prior to racing? Would it be less risky and more acceptable to let the skiers race on a normally groomed piste? When Klammer was in his pomp in the 70s I bet there was none of the technical snow preparation that goes on nowadays. |
The film of Klammer winning in 1984 really looks like a different hill. There's snow coming off the skis on the turns  . The course this year looked like polished marble - and in 1984 the finish 'roller' looks much further from the finish line than the current finish jump. Is that just my imagination?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
As a former DH racer and more relevantly as one of the British Technical Delegates responsible for approving the setting of race courses, Super G and Downhill included, there are some points that should be raised.
1. All courses require homologation, complying to the FIS rules for the specific discipline. These are simple; minimum/maximum vertical drop, length, number of turning gates, number of direction changes, turn radius conformity, distances between gates, yellow flag zones, finish area dimensions, helo landing areas etc. No problem so far.
2. There are also a number of guidelines, written and unwritten, that the course setters adhere to which include the number of jumps, the length of carry and the gradient of the landing zone.
3. Some courses have waivers due to historic grandfather rights. The Lauberhorn would not be homologated nowadays due to the railway bridge and the compression immediately under it both of which are at the limit of the skiers' physical tolerance. The Huhnschopf entry is narrow and precipitous hence skiers now being slowed to around 80 kph on entry. The Steilhang is at the limit of acceptable gradient but being a traverse gets away with it.
4. Visibility must be a minimum of two gates or, in the case of the downhill, at the TD's discretion, usually approx 100m.
5. New snow must be cleared from the course every 15 runners, minimum. And the ruts must be slid every 15 racers as well. The course will be assessed for wear and tear at the same time.
6. There are rules governing ski length, sidecut (turn radius), height of the skier's sole (foot not boot) from the base of the ski, binding and ski weight to level the paying field.
The reason for making the course as hard as possible is allow the later runners the best chance of demonstrating their ability in comparable conditions to the top 30. That allows racers like Fabienne Suter to ski onto the podium from start number 57 (I think it was her). The reason this did not happen in Klammer's day was that the chemical technology did not exist.
Ski technology has improved so much that many of the rules have been re-written. GS has changed massively with an increase in turning radius being imposed to open up the courses and make them faster. DH skis are now stiff through their whole length and have a radius of over 40m making them much faster than in days of yore. The carving ski has led to a rethink of how we ski as recreational skiers but for racers it opened up angles of lean and levels of grip hitherto unkown. And the first thing that happened was a massive increase in knee injuries (mine included - complete knee rebuild in 06) as we were unable to physically match the forces generated by the ski.
As to the danger inherent in DH, well yes, it is incredibly dangerous but that is why it is a discipline restricted to those who are capable of doing it and you do not see pay as you go DH courses in resorts in the Alps, despite the queues that would doubtless form as testosterone-loaded teenagers vied for sumpremacy. The improvement in netting has made courses far safer and the likelihood of an Ulrike Maier tragedy happening now is virtually non-existent. TD's personally place A, B and C netting in forecast trajectory of a faller all along the courses these days which is designed to collapse as the skier goes through it to decelerate him gradually - eg Hermann Maier in Nagano. That said, there is still risk. If there wasn't where woudl the attraction be for us as spectactors and them as competitors? I was sick before every downhill I ever did. The Albrecht crash was a huge shame and our thoughts are with him, but with his star in the ascendant, his team-mate at the top of his game and a good result within his grasp, he is sure to have been operating at the limit of his not inconsiderable ability.
Ban it? No. Make it safer? If possible. Change the courses to de-dramatise them? Absolutley not. As for Bode Miller complaining about the danger of the course, he makes them more dangerous than most due to a lack of technical ability compensated by with unbelievable balance, strength, line selection and courage. And that's why he finishes just 50% of his races.
Here endeth the homily... 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Thanks, Powderhound. A very interesting post.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Powderhound, Very interesting, but how do you stand on the changes to courses to dramatise them more? I only ever did 2 downhills and hated every terrified moment of them (particularly doing it on slalom skis and with no training in those days!)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
