 Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, "extremism"? You'll be accusing me of "terrorism" next.
No, let's just scale back the proportion of snow terrain which is groomed. The Kassbohrer Pistenbully was a brilliant invention for popularising the sport - I'm not denying it - but this is a death thread.
We're looking at ways of slowing people down and - to coin a phrase - Respect the Mountain.
Yes, some pistes would be more bumpy, rutty and patchy. It wouldn't be the end of the world.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sat 24-01-09 12:18; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
How is it that this vast sport has only about three ski areas internationally which consciously and deliberately refuse to groom snow?
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Because there's a limited market for it?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| David Goldfish wrote: |
rob@rar, "extremism"? You'll be accusing me of "terrorism" next.
No, let's just scale back the proportion of snow terrain which is groomed. The Kassbohrer Pistenbully was a brilliant invention for popularising the sport - I'm not denying it - but this is a death thread. |
So forcing more unskilled skiers onto the fewer pisted resorts is not almost an act of terrorism? Try telling that to the 1 week novice... 
Actually there's almost an arguement for opening up more open, pisted areas to ease congestion and the chance of incident.....I'd rather see more genuine green and blue runs and resorts not trying to pull in punters by suggesting their terrain may be suitable for certain types of skiing just to maximise their holiday traffic.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Masque wrote: |
I agree with stanton, the white autostrada we all love to blast down, are a magnet for unskilled, unprepared, over equipped snowH . . . numpties  |
What, you mean recreational skiers? Stopping the grooming of slopes would be the quickest way to kill the ski industry as we know it. I'm sure that old misery-guts stanton would be happy with that outcome, but I doubt you would? |
The ski industry has grown too big & too greedy they need to be put into check ASAP.
Just look at sk towns like Ischgl & Solden . Both these places have been trashed in the last 10 yrs with over development, over development of lift systems, grooming to death & hyper prices.
Even Austrians are embarrassed & hate what they have done to there own towns.
The Ski industry has in effect created the conditions & equipment to allow people to kill themselves & others.
There should be alot less grooming. The piste which they leave groomed should have more slow signs at critical junctions, runs to town & be policed (like in the US). i.e lift pass penalty or taken away.
I dont buy the "beginners" & "groomers" argument.
These guys were once beginners & no groomers, shades, ruksaks or bloody helmets either 
http://uk.youtube.com/v/KOH1Mvy0nfA
Here is an example of a groomer idiot in St Anton.
http://uk.youtube.com/v/EZ3OHueG7hc&feature=related
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Sat 24-01-09 16:12; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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and it wasn't a busy run. What a fuggin' total plonker. And not a hint of "is the innocent party OK". I'd have him put to death. Groomed or ungroomed makes not much difference with idiots like that.
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stanton, both you and Mr Goldfish are old enough to benefit from free lift passes aren't you? 
Whether you like it or not, skiing is no longer the preserve of a few bored British tobogganers with money to burn in Davos. Trying to haul it back into the 19th century is not a strategy which is likely to work.
PS. Most of the footage in that first vid is recent - quality is far too good, and it features a ski-mounted camera.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| stanton,Trying to haul it back into the 19th century is not a strategy which is likely to work. |
If the environmentalists have there way (like they have in Austria) it may not necessarily go back to the 19th but could well standstill
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stanton,
| Quote: |
| The ski industry has grown too big & too greedy |
I have to agree with you and Goldsmith there.
Industrial style development of the Alps was inevitable, though, because it was driven by a need to create wealth and employment in alpine regions. But it's gone way too far as resorts now have to import low cost workers to service their clientele and their own greed.
In a very real sense, skiing has ceased to be a sport. Skiers are now treated - and allow themselves to be treated - like semi disabled people, who need to be dragged, lifted or bussed over even the sorted flat, shallowest incline or tiniest walking distance.
The result of this despotification can be seen struggling, or bombing, uncontrollably down the groomed pistes on any given day of the season. Is it any wonder these people crash into each other? Unfit, unskilled and lacking any proper sense of balance, they have been sold the idea that they are skiers. Which they are not.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
and it wasn't a busy run. What a fuggin' total plonker. And not a hint of "is the innocent party OK". I'd have him put to death. Groomed or ungroomed makes not much difference with idiots like that. |
Oh my God. He could have killed her!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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PJSki, Don't you just love that there were 4 of them in total and not a single one of them so much as glanced back to see if she was ok. Unbelievable. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Schuss in Boots, it absolutely fecking disgusts me. That should be a very heavy on the spot fine, assuming the other skier was unhurt. The resorts should be monitoring all pistes with CCTV. Intelligent lift passes should be tracking people's movements. This kind of thing could be drastically reduced so easily.
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PJSki, agreed. Not to mention the near hero worship the plonker got from his mates and the person with the camera for having crashed. That sort of attitude is what's all wrong, not the piste grooming...
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You know it makes sense.
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queen bodecia, I tell you.... it's the yoof of today that's wrong....
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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queen bodecia, yes it's about attitude But piste design also plays a big part. A great example is the Club du Sport. A fantastic and challenging run, it has been under graded at Blue. There is too much dead ground and people are always having big nasty falls there, from what I've seen.
Bode's example clearly shows the danger skiers are exposed to by dead ground.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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That was appalling
I do think that Stanton does have a point, less frequent grooming will slow speeds overall and of necessity, force us to acquire additional skills . . . either through repetitive ass-planting as incentive or simple fear of the conditions . . . both will get us into schools.
Many resorts prepare their pistes beautifully and it's far too easy to behave badly because of that and we do need to empower the piste-patrol with the authority to confiscate passes and if the asswipe who lost it wants it back they can pay for a day's lesson in piste etiquette and to accompany the blood wagon crew for a day.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Shurely shome mishtake - I agree, largely, with stanton, PJSki and Masque. 
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Never mind lessons on technique, the ski schools, in conjunction with the resorts, should be offering lessons on skiing safety. Offer discounts on passes and insurance for people who have had some safety awareness courses. There are loads of initiative that could be introduced and that would make a real difference. Making helmets compulsory isn't one of them though.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hurtle, a broken clock is 'right' twice a day . . . 
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You think that the kind of people in the video stanton highlighted would start to behave more reasonably because they were on ungroomed slopes? I think not. Calling for slopes to be left ungroomed is like campaigning for speed bumps on motorways. I'd like to see more action to ensure a reasonable standard of behaviour on the slopes from the minority of skiers who spoil things for the rest of us, but I'm not persuaded that scrapping all the pistebashers is anything like a sensible solution.
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rob@rar, I don't think even stanton is advocating that ALL slopes remain ungroomed.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, I expect that you're right. Those blokes appeared typical of a class of occasional (once a year, generally) skiers who have few if any lessons, are not very good but can get down in one piece, usually, and, crucially, who lack the self awareness and awareness of others to know that their abilities are pretty limited. They probably think that they've cracked it, so why shouldn't they do what they see other people doing?
Ski resorts need to think about how they educate and control this class of skier, which is tricky when they provide a significant part of resorts' income. N.American resorts make more effort in this area, I think (probably because of liability concerns), with more warnings about dangerous skiing, slow skiing areas, plain clothes piste 'police' who take away passes and by no means least importantly, a culture that allows other skiers to complain to skiers who ski dangerously. The communal ownership of many of not all Euro resorts and the less 'liability happy' attitude of Euro courts makes it unlikely that a resort will suffer a big hit if someone is killed by a reckless and uncontrolled skier, but maybe it would be a good thing if that happened.
Mind you, people in N.America seem to ski into trees with monotonous regularity, so there's no helping some people.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| rob@rar, I don't think even stanton is advocating that ALL slopes remain ungroomed. |
In what way will reducing the number of pisted runs change the behaviour of the idiots? Those runs which are pisted will become even busier, and the idiots will continue to be idiotic. A recipe for disaster, IMO.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| richmond wrote: |
| ... more warnings about dangerous skiing, slow skiing areas, plain clothes piste 'police' who take away passes and by no means least importantly, a culture that allows other skiers to complain to skiers who ski dangerously. |
All very sensible measures which I'd support wholeheartedly, especially the piste police who actively sought out reckless and dangerous behaviour and took appropriate action.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rob@rar, I agree, you can't stop people being idiots  but you can slow them down and YES, speed bumps on a motorway is an apt analogy. We don't want them . . . and to that end we don't allow learners onto them . . . so why does anyone think that turning the hills into big white motorways without any restriction to access is a recipe for safety?
rob, you, like many slushNuts, are a very competent skier. You have a mental attitude that observes your local environment and adjusts your behaviour to suit that. It's not an 'age' thing, it's experience . . . and that is what the stupid amongst us lack.
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Oooooooh that vid has made me mad
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You know it makes sense.
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rob@rar, I agree with you and richmond, of course, but I also think that unpisted runs are more difficult to ski and therefore that less competent skiers will either be put off skiing them or, in spite of themselves, be slowed down. I agree there is a danger that pisted runs will become busier, but they will then just have to be better policed and more runs set aside specifically for slow novices. This is a problem that requires a look at the design and supervision of skiing terrain as a whole and, at the moment, it's arguable that there are generally in Europe too many fast, easy, unpoliced runs.
Absolutely agree with what laundryman says about idiots careering into trees. I actually saw a lad kill himself that way in Snowmass - but on a run that had been super-groomed and could be skied very fast by people of little competence. That run - which was long and wide - was policed, but only towards the bottom. As you say, the most important thing is to re-educate these people.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Hurtle, you are talking about 're-educating' young men so that they cease to behave like dangerous inconsiderate morons. Perhaps you might want to think about genetically re-engineering them first.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Wow. A mixture of total incompetence by the uphill skier - and utter indifference to the plight of the skier taken out by the guy videoing. Society is getting sick.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Masque, I see idiotic behaviour off-piste as well, so I don't think it will appreciably slow them down, they'll have even less control than on pistes and there'll be more avalanches to boot as idiots are forced to ski off-piste. I'm more in favour of Lizzard's approach than penalising the vast majority of recreational skiers because of the actions of a minority.
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rob@rar, so here do we go from here? There are only two variables . . .
1: Restrict access to the hill via a licensing program.
2: Make the hill physically less accessible.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Masque, I think policing plus penalties is another option.
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Masque, first off, you will never fix the problem. We have a licensing scheme for the drivers, traffic calming measures, speed cameras, traffic police, points on your license, fines, removal of driving licence, prosecutions and jail terms. But we still have idiots causing death and destruction in the roads. So doing all these things won't fix the problem on the mountains either.
So how do we reduce the problem if we accept that we can't fix it. As I said earlier, the list of things that richmond suggested would all have my support, and could be introduced quickly and relatively low cost. I'm sure there are other things which could more accurately target reckless and dangerous skiers instead of punishing all of us. Your two options, however, are undesirable and would be ineffective, IMO.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| Masque, I think policing plus penalties is another option. |
And one I've postulated . . . but not a variable.
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Masque, why ever not? It is a parameter which is in fact varied, between Europe and North America.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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laundryman, rob@rar, I think we're x-arguing. I think that a licensing scheme and better policing is the way to go.
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| Masque wrote: |
| laundryman, rob@rar, I think we're x-arguing. I think that a licensing scheme and better policing is the way to go. |
How would a licensing scheme work? Spend a week in lessons and get a badge? Do a multiple choice test so you know the skiers' code? Can't see how that will stop the idiots from being idiotic?
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FAQ
Two others that appear to be part of that group just skied past without so much as a pause.