 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi all,
I’m fairly new to skiing (last five years) and I’ve only been to two countries – Austria and Norway. In general, I noticed that, in the resorts I’ve been to, Austrian runs seem to be harder than Norwegian runs. For instance, Norwegian blacks run were similar to the Austrian red runs and Norwegian red runs were more like harder Austrian blue runs.
I know this is a very generalised observation (based on limited experience of different resorts), and run grading seems to be very subjective, but I was wondering if anyone else had noticed distinct differences in run grading between countries.
The main reason for asking is, I’m off to Fernie in Feb and I was just wondering how the blacks and double blacks in Canadian resorts compare with their European counterparts.
I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on the subject.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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SeeJay, I think it also varies from resort to resort within countries. They each like to be able to convey the idea that they have a wide variety of terrain and grade accordingly. But then I'm just an old cynic.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Is there any truth in the fact that marketing has a great deal to play in it? I've spent a lot of time in the 3 Valleys, ahh yes chocolate box material, but the piste guides don't seem to have any relevance to the pitch or width of slopes. In contrast, here in Les 2 Alpes they seem to be far more accurate, the blacks here really are blacks, not just put on a piste map to say; 'Oh yes we have x number of black runs'!!!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Gradient definitions etc. are finding their way into the laws of some ski countries and regions (e.g. the South Tyrol of Italy), so that runs are colour-graded more accurately but marketing certainly is guilty in some resorts - which is quite irresponsible.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I heard from someone that in Austria (definitely St Anton, maybe also elsewhere) they don't mark Blacks on the piste map. Instead they put "trails" in. These trails are *never* pisted.
That could explain why a v. steep pisted run in Austria is a red and black in another country...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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A friend of easiski perhaps??
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That fantastic multi lingual ski school based in Les 2 Alpes offering fantastic coaching and tuition to all levels?????
Yes.....
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PG.... as in great tips?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Mezza9Matt, Charlotte's obviously a good customer of the 'Mezzanine', then!
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| alexpresland wrote: |
I heard from someone that in Austria (definitely St Anton, maybe also elsewhere) they don't mark Blacks on the piste map. Instead they put "trails" in. These trails are *never* pisted.
That could explain why a v. steep pisted run in Austria is a red and black in another country... |
The Austrian Arlberg (StAnton-Lech-Zurs) is the exception in the 'dotted black' grading and the not-pisting. They also grade some 'dotted red' trails that are never pisted. The rest of Austria grades as per the rest of Europe, and Austrian blacks do get pisted (may be other exceptions like the Arlberg but I can't think of one)
I've not noticed substantial differences in difficulty of say a red or a black between particular countries, it varies between resorts or regions more than it varies between countries. Only done Whistler / Blackcomb in N America, don't know if this is reflection on rest of Canada (suspect it may be) but there when they grade black/diamonds you can be sure the run is worthy of that tag - unlike the odd blacks you come across sometimes in Europe where you suspect it's only there so that the resort can claim they have a bit of advanced terrain on their map.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Norwegian resorts tend to have more gentle gradients than Austria. I think the vikings perfect technique on their gentle slopes and then can handle the blacks in other countries as oposed to many of us that just ski down green, blues, reds and black and never quite get as stylish as it is more macho for us to say we "skied" that infamous death defying run. Not always in control!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I can see no correlation between the grading in the resorts I've been to. In Soldeu the reds are like Austrian blues. The blue down to the village in Lech (under the chair) is like a red in other Austrian resorts. The red right at the bottom of Hochgurgl is easy but the blue right at the top is hard. A red in Obergurgl we skied this year was previously a black. I am awaiting with baited breath to see what a green in the 3 valleys is like. This grading nonsense may not bother advanced skiers but it could be quite scary/dangerous for beginners coming off the nursery slopes. Go figure. It's all marketing.
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Based on the runs that I have sampled in Norway, Austria, France, Italy, Switzerland, Scotland, Canada and Sweden I form the following conclusions;-
(1) European grading is fairly consistent.
(2) There are some easy blacks around, especially in Italy and Norway.
(3) Canadian (and also North America I believe) black runs are groomed but they reserve the difficult ones as "diamonded" black. Really difficult ones have double diamonds and you may be expected to drop off a cliff over a 15 ft height to continue. I have not had the gut to try any black with diamond on.
(4) The North American resorts don't have any red run. Thus their black slopes are the European difficult reds.
(5) Swiss and Austrian resorts are not beginner-friendly but their grading systems are among the most consistent in European resorts.
(6) Many European blacks are not groomed (or not possible to groomed) for extra difficulties.
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You know it makes sense.
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THe colour sheme has to do with the length versus vertical . Weather or not there pisted is irrelevent.
In the Arlberg the "dotted red routes" means the runs are ONLY controlled for Avalanche .
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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As I understand it, the grading system varies from resort to resort, even within countries. For example, Espace Killy apparently grades only on the overall gradient of a run (height vs length), which seems bizarre but some of the runs seem to bear that out; it sounds as if St Anton does the same. The 3 Valleys apparently adopts a more subjective but perhaps more helpful system which takes account of the odd nasty bit in a run, so that a generally blue run with a significant steep narrow bit will be a red. Maybe it's to do with the type of skier they attract, or think that they attract, or want to attract.
All the N.American resorts I've been to indicate all blacks as 'diamond' (greens are circles and blacks are squares). There are single and double blacks, the standard of which varies from resort to resort. I find the double blacks at Sunshine (Banff), such as Free Fall, bloody scary and rarely do them, certainly they are all more difficult than your average European black (but of course there are plenty of scary blacks in Europe), but at Nakiska (a small resort in Alberta) I could do the only the double black easily. Almost everywhere (Europe or N.America) has to present a balance of all standards, and so all standards appear on the map.
In N.America there are some resorts which pride themselves on being mostly tough stuff or mostly easy stuff, so the piste map is a bit monochromatic. Are there any like that in Europe? I'm a fan of resorts with a good balance; some of the time (most of the time?) I like fast cruising runs, but the occasional challenge (which for me is a difficultish black or biggish bumps) is good. The great thing about many N.American resorts is that above the treeline you can usually ski all over the mountainside, so that if you're in the bumps and wish you weren't, you just ski out of them. It encourages you to have a go.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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In the Arlberg the "dotted red routes" means the runs are ONLY controlled for Avalanche .
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Is this the same everywhere, including the 'iteneraires' (sic?) of France. I find the showing of these ski routes, or whatever you want to call them, on piste maps very ambiguous. Re St Anton and Lech, where I recently went, some guide books recommend these routes should be done with a guide only, whereas our reps in resort stated they were patrolled but not pisted and were generally safe for capable skiers staying in the vicinity of the markers. I do feel that if a run/route is shown on a piste map, then further clarification should be given as to what it means. Is it not simpler for something to be either on- piste or off-piste?
Also I've heard that Fernie's piste map is a bit of a nightmare. Any opinions / things to look out for, as I'm, off there soon?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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In the Arlberg . Dont get confused with Ski Routes & the High Alpine Touring Routes (Tourenabfahrt) these are normally labeled red,black dotted ie the Routes in Stuben down to Langam or Verwall. These are deffinity not controlled,patrolled or Pisted and you should not ski alone. IF you dont know the route a guide is essential. Your know if your on one of these High Alpine Routes because 9 times out of 10 your be hiking up some condiderable distance & wished you had skins 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I'll echo all the comments made above about inconsistent grading. The problem is compounded by unpredictable (at least to inexperienced skiers) variations caused by snow conditions. I've seen a blue run cause difficulty to many experienced skiers when it was opened with no grooming after an exceptional fall of heavy, wet snow; similarly, a black run in bright sunlight with a dusting of fresh powder is a very different proposition from the same run in flat light after a few days of freeze-thaw conditions.
In these days of instant electonic communication, the large resorts should be providing prominant signs at the bottom of popular lifts to set out an instant, colour-coded, standardised verdict on how difficult each particular run is today. Information about snow depth, wind speed and temperature is often provided, but skiers with the expertise to interpret this data can generally ski under difficult conditions anyway.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Jonny Jones, what a wonderful idea about the instant readouts. I'm afraid it might fall foul to the weather though - our lift company put clocks on lots of the signs recently (very useful), but had to take them all out again because they all stopped due to the cold! 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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saikee,
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(1) European grading is fairly consistent.
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You have GOT to be joking. I've just spent a week in Plagne/Arcs, and despite lack of snow, vast quantities of ice and rock, I found only one proper red. And believe me I tried. At best the majority of reds were purple. And most of the blues should be green. Just over the hill is Courchevel/Meribel which, I found, consistently calls a spade a spade - greens are green, blues are blue & reds are red. (Blacks still a mystery to me, so can't comment). And on the other side of Plagne/Arcs is Tignes/Val D, which also manages to grade it's runs accurately.
Grading in (at least in the) Savioe region seems to depend on resort slope-wide gradient - if the resort isn't particularly steep then, in order to attract a wider audience, resort management tends to creatively invent a harder grading for some slopes than that slope dictates.
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