Light or Heavy on Skis?

A snowHead

Being an avid watcher of WC skiing, not mention being an avid skier, one regular hears of skiers (particularly in the speed events) being either heavy on their skis or light. Indeed, watching the action in conjunction with the commentary, it's often obvious how the description fits what one is seeing.

So what makes one heavy or light on their skis? And it's not just a physical or size thing. Some downhill skiers are quite obviously 'large', but ski lightly. Is it more a case of skeletal reaction to the rigours placed upon one's 'frame' by the interaction with skis/slope/conditions etc? There's probably a technical description which alludes me.

Why? I'm curious because I feel as though I ski heavily. That's to say that whilst I always try and maintain a positive position over my skis, it rarely (unless skiing in fresh powder) feels as though I'm gliding lightly. Just to try and put some perspective on that: The last lesson I had in Livigno last season was with an instructor/ski racer. His assessment was that he didn't feel there was much improvement I could make in my position/style of piste skiing. Last week I went past my SO and her instructor (who had stopped on the side of the piste) - when she pointed me out and said that I was possibly looking for a lesson, he said, and I quote "He needs a lesson? There aren't probably too many instructors here who could teach him much - that's a very good position, but not for off-piste, and there isn't too much of that at the moment".

I should add that last week was the first week since I started skiing that I've not had a lesson - economics being the only reason.

A snowHead

Chasseur, completely off topic but I think we deserve to see some video of you skiing Twisted Evil

i.e. Are these instructors' comments more of a comment on their ability to instruct I wonder

Back on topic, I've always believed it had to do with "touch" - and now I'm going to struggle to articulate my thinking! In a recreational sense, someone who's "heavy" on their skis will, IMO, be using brute force in place of technique. I suspect your "(musculo-)skeletal reaction" concept has much to do with it as well.

As an aside, I was told years ago to ski "moufle" - both to help in poor snow and to avoid base damage from rocks. I like to think my bases take less damage from stony pistes than chums' do...

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Chasseur, are you able to tell us what different "position" this instructor thought you should adopt for off-piste?

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Chasseur, personally, if it's light and fluffy then I just tend to adopt a more balanced stance - weight more equal across skis and slightly towards the back than normal. For hardpack, crud, windblow - well it's just like a piste isn't it?

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Far be it from me to "advocate" anything, but I find that in deepish snow and crusty stuff the only way I can ski effectively (i.e. make those nice round turn shapes down the fall line without getting unbalanced and knackered after a few turns) is to keep as forward as I would do on the piste. I do find it hard to keep sufficiently forward as there is a feeling of almost being "pushed" back, but when I manage to get there the skiing becomes more fluid and easy. When in the "back seat" I tend to make those "elongated Z" type "turns" and end up going too fast, but when forward and driving with the knees the turns become sweet and round.
Anyways this is what I found during 6 days of "slightly heavy" powder between Switzerland and Austria last week - only skied 2 pistes the whole week Very Happy

We did have to walk a bit to find it though:-

Not sure what you mean by "downhill skier"? I'm not suggesting a racing tuck for off-piste Shocked

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Wonderful picture Yoda. Just great.

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mfj197, thanks - I think one of the others took some better ones (including one of me having a bit of trouble on a steep uphill kick turn Laughing

), I'm waiting for her to email them and will then post more on the Zone. Above- by "forward" I probably mean "stacked", or "not back", doh whatever, sorry for thread diversion Embarassed

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Yoda, Great Photo]

Chasseur, I think the new thinking is with the development of powder skis and rockers you can now adopt a more centered stance in the pow. If you have the weight and hips forward you are going to have more control over the tip of the skis and turn angle etc.

As for the topic I think light is how delicate they are and how they almost look like ballet dancers on the skis at times. I think if you where to put faces on it

Heavy on ski Miller

Light on ski Svindal

Both excellent skiers but get to there ends with diffrent means

A snowHead

Chasseur, yes sorry about the slight diversion. Back on track, I remember many years ago being recommended to "be light on my skis" as we were about to negotiate some crust. I interpreted this as meaning we should try to make "delicate" movements so as not to break through the crust, as I couldn't see any immediately obvious way of reducing the local acceleration due to gravity. Needless to say it didn't work Confused

Last week when hitting moderately crusty stuff that was breakable a much more "dynamic" approach that punched and drove through it was effective, although when the going got tougher I resorted to a good old stem.

A snowHead

Ok, let me see if I've got this straight. On piste - assuming moderate conditions. Well forward, probably on the balls of the feet as opposed to spreading the load across the whole foot, angulation and counter (I think that's the right term), absorbing any fluctuations in the piste conditions through flex (ankle, knee, hips/waist), in other words looking ahead and feeling/reacting to what's under foot?

Off-piste - assuming powder and non-visibility of what is underfoot. More centred, more weight distributed through the whole foot (as opposed to being on the balls of the foot). Still forward, but less than the above description. Still using the same technique, but more upright to anticipate and react to fluctuations in under ski conditions?

Still a little off track, but interesting none-the-less, bearing mind that I really want to get to grips with off-piste skiing away from the edge of the piste stuff.

Even more off track: I tried a few turns a la Bode Miller (well sort of) last week. Respect to him, my thighs were burning so much the Hintertux glacier receded another few cm Laughing

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Chasseur, On piste you are constantly changing position on the ski through the turn Forangulation or forward and angulated into the turn and slowly moving the center of gravity towards the tails so you can accelerate out of the turn by Forangulating again.

Think your off piste one is good as it gets in words

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Chasseur, Very nice pic of slalom - nothing 'downhill' about it! Actually heavy people can ski light, but it's almost impossible to explain. Light skiers will have more feeling for the edges so will achieve the same results in the turn from less pressure. Imagine skiing on breakable crust and trying not to break through - ski as though you were skiing on eggshells and you didn't want to break them! In racing, heavy edging actually slows you down and you can see it happening in slalom and GS. Off piste is just that - we've got plenty - no pow though! Same balanced postion, same principles apply .............

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Ordhan, yup, understand that - thanks. Imagining what I do when skiing, that seems right.

easiski, the guards do give it away I suppose Laughing

The pic was for descriptive purposes purely. I'm not sure I've the skills to ski on eggshells yet.....certainly I can differentiate light edging and the slowing effect of heavy edging. Having done a few GS courses (resort type, not FIS type naturally), when a sharp traverse was required to get round the next gate on one course, I managed to stack because of heavy pressure and an almost uphill requirement threw me into the back seat....skis over head rolling eyes

Whilst I understand that the principle of off-piste requires the same position and principles I still can't seem to get my head around why an instructor would say what he did. I think, on the next trip, I'll take a lesson and split it between on-piste to assess that and then off-piste to see how the subtleties differ.

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how many prof.......listen the difference is only that for race we need speed......and so we need a position who permit us to go fast.....so mean a close position.......and that mean we have to win the power of the speed leaning forwanrd........for off piste we need the tibs of the ski stay out from the snow........that mean stay leaning backword a bit......less if you have fat skiss........so for lean back the best is to stay opened with the upper body.......and every become automatic.......
THE BIGGER PROBLEM IS THAT SOMETIME INSTRUCTOR ARE NOT GOOD........but that happen ......like in every job.......but in this forum I see a lot of people who talk to much......please pay atention to don't generalisate when you speak about ski instructor.......we are not all poo-poo.....
concernig light position......your wait is the same independent from your ski tecnic.....mean just to be more gradual e smoth in your movement and to do not use only the force........muscolar power normally si the opposite than good skier......only if we are racing is important the power....if not is much more important to be smoth in the movement........

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yoda.....sorry but is not "in vino verita"......but is latin and it is "vino inverita."......that mean not that in the wine there is the true.....like you write.....but that when we drink we say the true......that is what happen everyday.....ahahahaha

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lungostyle, ah well, time I moved on anyway wink

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lungostyle, We have to agree to differ about the body position off piste! Variety is the spice of life. Very Happy

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Skiing "light" or "heavy" has to involve several factors. The laws of physics dictate what total load the skis will have to bear to achieve a given turn radius and speed for any given skier. A physically heavier skier will obviously generate higher forces. But I think the way those forces are distributed between the 2 skis and along the skis length is what makes one skier appear "lighter" than another. A skier using a weight distribution of 90:10 across the skis will look much "heavier" on their skis than a skier using 50:50. Also a centred skier will tend to look "lighter" than a skier in the backseat. I think this is why some physically heavy skiers are able to appear "light" on their skis i.e. by adopting a more even weight distribution and being fairly centred. There are also other factors such as how aggressively a skier turns in or completes their turns. A "lighter" skier is likely to be more subtle at the transition points.

Just my thoughts as an engineer

uktrailmonster, disagree. Easiski (as usual) is, IMHO, correct. It is I think to do with subtlety of edging.

You know it makes sense.

under a new name, same thing, mine is just more of a physics based description. The only way a heavy skier can exert less pressure is by more evenly distributing their weight on the skis (for any given speed, turn radius and surface grip level).

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

danjunk it's OK, I've moved on to whisky now wink

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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.....SORRY i HAVE A T SHIRT WITH VINO INVERITA......I WAS THINKING WAS WRITTEN CORRECT.......

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I'm sure it is, as i've heard vino inverita as well. The Pliny quote though is also in vino veritas. (though not "in vino veritas, in aqua sanitas" as is often stated).

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easy ski.....why you don't agree?? tell me in what you don't agree......maybe on the leaning back??? I know there is also the school who say central we skis under the snow........but we can do that at very low speed..........and you know me......I don't like nothing at slow speed........so when in la grave you want go fast it is much better lea back.......and a lot........naturally if I want see my wonderfull sun at the end of the day::..

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uktrailmonster, hmmm, I'm not convinced. The key, IMHO, is the observer's perception (woooh shades of Heisenberg...) , not what Newtonian physics dictates. I think that no matter what one weighs, "lighter" (touch) skiers literally have a lighter touch on their edges. "Heavier" (touch) skiers don't, and I think have to use more strength. It's not just down to edge sensitivity either, but timing, smoothness, anticipation and all the other good things come into it.

Perhaps the OP question should have been "effortless" rather than "light" and "laboured" rather than "heavy"?

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under a new name, no I don't think so. The terms heavy and light are well-used and I understand the difference. What I was aiming to understand was the level that biomechanics (?) plays. As mentioned some large skiers (as in the DH racing variety we see on the TV) are deemed to be light on their skis, so weight isn't necessarily the issue. I mean would you describe, say, Herman Maier as a laboured skier....?

Chasseur, I don't think biomechanics has anything to do with it - it's feeling and you can't quantify that.

lungostyle, yes - leaning back - I've never subscribed to it, it leaves you unbalanced and slightly out of control. Only when the snow is so heavy that you stop dead if your tips don't come out of the snow should you do it. But you know that you won't persuade me, and I know the reverse. wink

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under a new name, not sure what you're not convinced about? I was only pointing out that physics does dictate ski loads and physical mass is a first order variable. "Literally having a lighter touch on your edges" is a very vague description of what is really happening and doesn't explain anything. Perhaps I over-emphasised the weight distribution thing and should have focused more on the way a skier builds up their cornering load during the turn. But one thing is for sure, a physically heavier skier has to generate higher loads to achieve the same cornering force as a physically light skier. The only way the heavier skier can appear "lighter" is by managing their weight distribution more efficiently (as in my previous post) and by smoother transition phases (which I didn't emphasise enough?). I haven't yet seen anyone cheat gravity and Newtons most basic laws of physics.

Just to expand slightly, a more even weight distribution (both laterally and longitudinally) does not decrease the total load for a given speed and cornering acceleration, but it distributes the load more uniformly between and along the length of the skis, making the skier appear "lighter on their edges". Similarly, a smooth transition builds up the ski loads more gradually and consistently. Again making the skier appear to "have a lighter touch". I'm just adding a bit of elementary physics to your subjective observations.

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Light or Heavy on Skis?

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