 Poster: A snowHead
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Just curious to know in what situations it is pure bad luck if you hit someone.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Your gondola detaches itself from the cable and lands on a your friend who has stopped below to take a photo.
skimottaret, I think bad luck does exist. With regards to accicdents I think bad luck is usually an accumulation of factors that conspire to producce an accident, when a change in each factor could have prevented the accident. The sad case of a father who recently dropped his old TV on his daughters head and killed her being one example
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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so these accumulation of factors that conspire would be things like what... have you hit anyone when that sort of thing occured?
THinking back on the times when i have crashed into/with someone it was two situations
1. me making turns across a narrow cat track to stay slow and someone hitting me from behind and then me getting an earful for "taking up the whole piste" , i actually have a bit of sympathy for the person behind in that instance for example and now try not to use the whole track.
2. The other one is making hard carving turns on piste and "50/50" ing .... crashing into someone who is doing the same thing when we are the same distance down the fall line.
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skimottaret,
1 - agreed, if possible I semi-sideslip along the side to reduce speed, though that sometimes incurs the wrath of the speeding skiers who like to use the sides to bomb down.
2 - also agreed, that has happened to me, as mentioned on the other thread.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skimottaret, I have had a collision involving No2. ....although I would think that a "hard carving turn" was stretching it a bit. In my case we both considered the blame equal and thus probably "accidental"
EDIT: IN No1 I think the blame is 100% on the uphill skier.
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Frosty the Snowman, although the uphill skier should be able to avoid me i am kinda thinking though that turning across a traversy cat track is akin to sitting in the middle of the piste....
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| skimottaret wrote: |
1. me making turns across a narrow cat track to stay slow and someone hitting me from behind and then me getting an earful for "taking up the whole piste" , i actually have a bit of sympathy for the person behind in that instance for example and now try not to use the whole track.
2. The other one is making hard carving turns on piste and "50/50" ing .... crashing into someone who is doing the same thing when we are the same distance down the fall line. |
I try to leave room on cat tracks for people to pass me. Just seems like common courtesy. Same on pistes if I'm aware there is someone close behind, where I'll leave a bit of room at the piste margin if they want to get past me.
The only time I've collided with someone was skiing with a friend making figure of eights in the corduroy of a freshly pisted run. We got into sync with predictable results. That was 20 years ago, and I learned my lesson then. I think that was a case of 50:50 stupidity.
It might be a close judgement to make if someone cuts out of trees which are lining the piste and ends up in front of someone on the piste. In that case it's difficult to say that the piste skier should have been aware of the skier in the trees and what they might do.
It think it's a pretty good guideline to say that if a skier is on the slope below you it is your responsibility, and your's alone, to avoid a collision. This doesn't depend if they are moving or stationary, skiing predictably or erratically.
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| skimottaret, I have had a collision involving No2. |
Blimey - did you meet a grizzly bear! 
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skimottaret, Faster skiers should show patience on cat tracks as the inexperienced skier will often be barely in control on the narrow piste and be very tense and nervous. This is not their fault as these tracks are often unavoidable and often used as a option to miss out steeper piste sections.
From this forum I have learned about the blind spot of a boarder, but I bet 50% of skiers out there have no idea what it is and will happily sit in that blind spot or overtake closely to the rear of a boarder.
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| From this forum I have learned about the blind spot of a boarder, but I bet 50% of skiers out there have no idea what it is and will happily sit in that blind spot or overtake closely to the rear of a boarder. |
Is it significantly different to a skier's blind spot?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Frosty the Snowman, i think it is the other way around.. the inexperienced skiers are usually the fast ones bombing down tracks and the exerienced ones are taking it easy making turns or using the snow on the sides to have some fun...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rob@rar, when on a cat track their blind spot can make for a dangerous situation.
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skimottaret, I think it can be both. Not all inexperienced skiers are raving lunatics 
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You know it makes sense.
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| rob@rar, when on a cat track their blind spot can make for a dangerous situation. |
Yes, but can't the same be said for skiing behind skiers? You are skiing directly behind them, in their blind spot and you have an option to pass them on their left or right, and they have the option to suddenly swerve left or right. Same potential for collision as when in a boarder's blind spot?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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every one is correct
rob@rar - think of which direction you are looking (or can possibly look) when you are side slipping on your skis down a steep slope and imagine someone cutting across the piste from behind you - I think that is as close as you may get on skis to this'boarder 'blind spot' idea.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Tue 30-12-08 12:13; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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Most of the times I've bumped into people is skiing switch, I guess slightly akin to having a boarders blind spot.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar, What I am saying is that a boarder can unwittingly turn into someone who is skiing at the same speed as them. A boardrer has a stance that has them facing to the right, they are skiing down the right edge of the piste, they cannot see what is skiing the piste behind their back. I have also learned from here that boarders get tired quickly on such tracks if they have to hold one edge all the time and nay thus swap edges in a flash without warning or reason.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Frosty the Snowman, I agree with all that you say, but I don't see how the notion of a blind spot does not apply to a skier as well (albeit with the blind spot being at a slightly different point of the compass).
I agree that sometimes it's necessary to be patient on cat tracks, which I'm happy to do if there is no sensible place to pass people in front of you. You rarely have to wait for long, and in the meantime you can play around with stuff as skimottaret said.
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rob@rar, The FIS rules should protect a skier from what is in his/her blind spot. My point is that most skiers do not realise that a boarder has a different blind spot to a skier.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Frosty the Snowman, that is about it, and a skier on a track can look left and right and with a bit of twisting see what is coming on the sides, where as a boarder can can look back up the track or down the track or to one side of the track in the way they are facing, but not over their leading shoulder behind their backs, so there is this big area behind the leading shoulder that is sort of 'blind'. I prefer to do lots of tight weaving edge to edge turns (in a one meter corridor of piste) which helps open vision up a little over the leading shoulder because the board is momentarily at an angle across the piste every second or two..
rob@rar - I think the issue is that the blind spot for a boarder is more along side the boarder, rather than with a skier which is perhaps immediately behind the skier, which is why a boarder is likley to turn into someone who is skiing/boarding along side them, whereas as a skier can see some one who is skiing/boarding along side them, and perhaps would expect everyone else on the piste likewise to have the same line of vision.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Tue 30-12-08 12:27; edited 1 time in total
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| My point is that most skiers do not realise that a boarder has a different blind spot to a skier. |
Yes I agree with that.
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rob@rar,
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It think it's a pretty good guideline to say that if a skier is on the slope below you it is your responsibility, and your's alone, to avoid a collision. This doesn't depend if they are moving or stationary, skiing predictably or erratically.
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I would agree with this with a couple of exceptions:
1. I've noticed increasing problems with people using just-off-piste kickers rejoining the piste (often in an uncontrolled manner) without any thought to people already on-piste. It's all very well if you can see them coming, but sometimes the topography prevents that.
2. People stationary on-piste who restart skiing without checking up-slope first
The second is covered by the FIS rules but not sure that the first is.
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Nick L, what is the situation whereby two people converge (when turning for example) who are more or less level on the piste with neither 'up-piste' ?
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Nick L, yes, agree to people entering the piste unsighted (as I said earlier about people cutting on to the piste from trees). The FIS rules do say you should check uphill before setting off - I think that reflects a common theme of taking responsibility for your own safety and those slope users around you. Some people are not so good at looking out for themselves and entirely ignorant of the need to look out for others.
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Maybe if the FIS put in a rule that all slope users must have a cow bell around their neck we could avoid any situation like this!
Then anyone in an accident could easily be removed from blame if they were wearing a cow bell, we could then continue to burn anyone without a bell at the stake on the highst peak of the resort! I knew there would be simple solution. 
Anyone have the address for the FIS?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Nick L, I thimk the rules mention looking when "entering" a piste, which would cover when going from off-piste to on-piste
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| Nick L, what is the situation whereby two people converge (when turning for example) who are more or less level on the piste with neither 'up-piste' ? |
The only proper collision I had was when I was making turns at a moderate pace down the right side of a piste with no one below me. I noticed a chap standing just off piste a few 100m below. Then I saw out of the corner of my eye a woman heading from the left side of the piste in a wide turn (from 50m or so to the left and just below me) towards my side. I slowed down a bit and kept right to allow her room. Turns out the chap was her husband and she just headed right across the piste to meet up with him. She closed down on me so that I couldn't even make a turn and then cut in to get to her husband at the side of the run. I did do the gentlemanly thing and turned to let her hit me in the front and fell back so that she landed on top of me. At that time I did not have to skill to avoid somone who was forcing me almost off the piste. However... looking back on the situation she had gradually cut down all my escape routes by coming in from the side at an angle without even looking to see if anyone was there.
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is there a point to this debate? wouldn't it be better to discuss how best to avoid being in collisions (which may involve doing things not covered by the FIS rules like checking your blindspot when turning)?
i'd certainly rather not be involved in a collision than have a crash but be "in the right"
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You know it makes sense.
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Arno, In my situation the big clue I missed was the chap at the side staring up the piste. Kind of obvious looking back to see that he was waiting for someone and that that person may spot him suddenly and come across.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Arno, my point was that in virtually all collisions there is a mitigating factor, not just "bad luck". It was prompted by the guy on the other thread who had helmet cam footage of him mowing down another skier and somehow thought he was in the right... i just wanted to see if people would justify their collisions...
perhaps now is a good time to discuss how best to avoid collisions and have amendments to the skiers code...
Blind spots do exist, be aware of them
dont take up the entire slope when making turns as lesser skilled skiers will not be able to avoid you
Do not ski directly alongside someone as sudden turns can lead to a collision
Dont drink 2 pints of Mutzig at lunch... 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Arno, I think the point is that sometimes no one is at fault no matter how much 'looking up slope' advise you get and follow, so it is good to be aware that circumstances can just be against you (as Scarpa) - it is good to be aware of this maybe rather than getting into a 'not my fault' situation or argument with some stranger on the piste when youn have a little bump
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| skimottaret wrote: |
perhaps now is a good time to discuss how best to avoid collisions and have amendments to the skiers code...
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Don't just think about how to avoid people when you are in control. Also think about what would happen in the event of a crash - how far would you slide before you came to a stop? Are you skiing so fast that your spill zone includes a class of 7 year olds snaking across the piste, for example?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| Just curious to know in what situations it is pure bad luck if you hit someone. |
If you punch them then I'd say that it's probably not "bad luck"
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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rob@rar, good point
Always ski under the assumption that you may crash and constantly consider the consequences should you fall
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I had a very near miss at the EoSB 07 comimg into the flat area in Val Thorens centre. A skier who was just in front of me but on the right edge suddenly put in a 90 degree left turn straight accross the piste, hard and fast, and directly into my path. The only way to miss him was to similarly go left which pointed straight at a father little kid who were stood still in the middle of the piste. A bag crash was unavoidable but I instinctively jumped out of the way of the kid. Somehow I manged to jump out of my skis and landed 10 ft the other side of the rather shocked father and son. I had to walk past them to get to my skis which were directly behind them. Although untouched the father had a moan at me about going too fast. I was convinced I had done nothing wrong, but...............
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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FAQ
