 Poster: A snowHead
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Last year when sking down a moderate black my skis slipped from under me and I landed on my hip. Then I started sliding down, I panicked and kicked my skis off . I tried to dig in my ski boots into the snow, but my speed just kept increasing. Difficult to put a speed on it but it was fast. What was going thru my mind at the time was
1. if I dig my ski boots in too much, I'll go into a tumble and break a collar bone etc
2. With the increasing speed - I was worried about a friction burn from the icy snow
Slid the length of the run about 300m , luckily at the bottom it levelled out, no injuries but got one hell of a fright
What should I have done, kept the skis on and tried to use them as brakes ?
Any suggestions ?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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yes, it is a good question. More answers eagerly awaited! I don't think I'd deliberately kick my skis off.
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personally if I'm in that situation first and foremost work out whether a prolonged slide is going to be an issue (ie no cliff or immovable objects I need to avoid) and where it's likely to end... on the assumption it's not and there aren't I tuck elbows and arms in so they're not going to get caught and possibly broken and slide to a stop. If there are immovable objects then I try and best I can to steer away using a sledging type of technique................. if I need to force myself to a stop I'd do as per kamikaze, suggestion.
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FWIW, I was once told by a guide in Val D'Isere that if you've lost your skis and you're sliding down the mountain then you should adopt the press-up position with your feet down the slope (very similar to the hands-only self arrest mentioned above). This was partly because it was the best way to stop, but also because if you hit anything really nasty (like a massive rock), then it breaks your legs rather than your head...
..but then this was the same guy who showed us how to plant an uphill pole to take out an out of control skier(/boarder) before he hit you! 
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This has happened to me too and it is quite scary because you do slide very quickly. Last time I slid face first and I found it impossible to rotate myself around.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Yes, keep your skis on and get your feet below you, accross the slope, and push yourself off the snow with your arms to put weight on your edges.
If your skis come off get onto your front and your feet below (if you are head down put your arm out to swivel around). ie NOT on your bum. Then try to get all your weight on your boot tips by doing a press-up as ChrisWo's guide said. The technique was invented by Giles Green and it will stop you on a 45º slope or more, unless the snow is icy. It saved my life once because Giles made me practice it for about 20 minutes one time when I skied with him.
(Most people have probably already read about my Alagna brush with death (Victoria fall) but if you haven't...)
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Fri 2-01-09 0:59; edited 3 times in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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One way of decelerating is to get face down, feet first, draw your pole handles under your chest and put as much weight through them as possible.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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kendub, Good question. I don't know the answer. I had a similar quandry, kept my skis on, got my legs downhill but skis just arched and jumped off surface. I then reverted to praying which worked as came to rest gently at the edge of the abyss.
| ChrisWo wrote: |
| it breaks your legs rather than your head... |
That's comforting.
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This is something you can actually practice given a short pitch of a steep slope. Throw yourself headfirst down hill then try and correct your position as you slide.
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You know it makes sense.
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Good plan. I'm going to try this. It has never even crossed my mind what to do to stop myself sliding apart thrashing around hoping for the best. I'm definitely going to have a practice at this. Thanks for the question and thanks snowball.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| ChrisWo wrote: |
| FWIW, I was once told by a guide in Val D'Isere that if you've lost your skis and you're sliding down the mountain then you should adopt the press-up position with your feet down the slope (very similar to the hands-only self arrest mentioned above). This was partly because it was the best way to stop, but also because if you hit anything really nasty (like a massive rock), then it breaks your legs rather than your head... |
Done it. It worked. And I caught a block of ice, rather than a rock - but I sill broke my left fibula. Much better than the alternative though - as at one stage I was accelerating toward trees on a steep slope on my back.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
Throw yourself headfirst down hill then try and correct your position as you slide.
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sounds like a fun day. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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pam w, 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I once took a tumble face first downhill at the top of a forty degree couloir in St. Anton. I had read about the press up technique but never practised it but I went for it and it worked. You have to react very quickly which I did. It's amazing what adrenaline (or was it fear?) can do. I twisted myself around and over to the right position instantly, both skis were off, and I dug my toes in. The snow was reasonable, packed rather than soft at one extreme or icy at the other.
If you fall at the top of a really steep slope, your best chance is to stop yourself immediately. If you do not then, you are likely to just gain speed at which point it becomes impossible to stop. There is no time to assess what to do, you just have to react.
I think the term "press up" in this context needs to be clarified. It is not like a press up from the horizontal in the gym. On a steep slope you are already way off the horizontal and all you need is a little push, just to get your body a few degrees off the snow. Too big a push and you are liable to dig your toes or skis in too much and flip over again, at which point you may well be going too fast to stop the next time.
I don't think trying to dig your poles in will help. Some people will ski with their hands out of the straps on steeps anyway and the poles will probably go flying in a sharp fall. If your hands are in your straps, trying to control the poles quickly in a steep tumble will be difficult and I suspect you are more likely to punch your teeth out, than stop yourself.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Megamum wrote: |
Other thoughts are that I think I would want to lose my skis - I slipped a short way once and the twist of the ski against my foot was concerning, but if they didn't come off in the original fall I don't know how easy it would be to get them to come off whilst sliding.
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I don't think you should even try. In the situation I mentioned there would be no time anyway.
The only answer is to be able to use these techniques with both skis on, one ski on, or both skis off.
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Practice, practice and yet more practice. When I started winter mountaineering we used to do the ice axe braking drills every time we found a steep slope with a safe run out. Once braking (axe. feet or poles) becomes second nature then just do a couple of attempts each year. If you have to think about it then it's generally too late.
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One other comment - if you've still got your skis on when you're sliding and you find yourself sliding on your back, then you need to get both skis pointing the same way and dig an edge in as you won't be able to flip over or get an edge if you're sliding down the piste on your back with the skis in the air.
Megamum - fortunately I do have a GSOH 
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kamikaze, You'll do sooooooo well here
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I learned about the self arrest technique only after I had a rather alarming fall down most of the pitch (towards the seracs) on the Point de Vue in Argentiere. I was skiing just off the edge of the piste and for some inexplicable reason my downhill ski popped off. I lost balance and found myself very quickly sliding on my back - head down the slope. I had never considered what to do in this situation. My first instinct (correct) was to get my head up and feet down the slope - which I did. My second instinct (wrong) was to dig in my remaining ski while travelling on my back. I flipped straight up in the air and sumersaulted - losing the ski in the process. Now, not thinking very clearly and moving ever faster, I repeated the maneouvre - this time digging my boots in while on my back. Result another backflip! At this point I realised that this was not the best approach - and decided that I could get on my back, feet down and steer enough to keep me from hitting the rocks.
I continued like this for a few hundred metres and saw a small group gathered round an injured skier. They were on a small plateau and I aimed towards (rather than at) them. A combination of the plateau and some helping hands brought me to a stop.
One of the girls looked at me saying ' Votre tete, votre tete' and I was sure that it must have been split open. But in fact it was just completely (completely!) covered in snow.
I had no serious injury (thankfully) - but was stiff and aching and bruised for days. The poor person in the other group was not so lucky - and was helicoptered off the mountain with a broken leg.
My friend who had seen the whole fall skied down picking up my skis, poles, glasses, hat and other bits of debris. She reckoned I'd fallen about 600 metres.
Since then I have done two things. Firstly, I always ski with a helmet. Secondly, I practice the self arrest technique every year.
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I can see the point, but practising the technique must cause slight consternation to other slope users
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
I panicked and kicked my skis off
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That's unfortunately the panic reaction of a first time slider. In reality, you should try to use it to create some friction to slow down.
Think of side slipping. You don't want to dig the edge in hard, or you'll tumble over. You want to press the edge just enough to SLOW DOWN.
As for the present of mind, you'll be surprised to find time itself seem to slow down too. The key to NOT make matter worse, is do NOT try to stop, just slow down gently. Drag you skis, poles, hands, or even drag your elbow and knees. Still, the best is skis. Me? I only start worrying when I lose BOTH skis.
Next time, just pratice side-slipping while on your side. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Megamum, It's something you practice on short steep bits off the side of the piste... hopefully
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Fred made me practise falling over downhill and getting skis under me straight away (ie just tumble over until on feet again)... his story was it is better to be able to get back on your feet...
Similarly my instructor always made me practise self righting (getting face down head up) every time I fell... on the basis that it then becomes more natural and instinctive... I was yelled at if I did not get head upslope very fast!(and off the back if I was lying on back)...
I think I may need to practise again though as I do not fall that much these days...
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You know it makes sense.
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We used to do this drill with an axe... hood up, lay on back, have legs grabbed by mates, be launched off a steep slope head first on your back at high speed. Recover very, very quickly.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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little tiger's practicing falling may have some mileage in it.
My brother always seems to manage to fall in awkward ways, he's bruised and cracked ribs on a couple of occasions, cracked a wrist bone. He seems to spend every holiday nursing some kind of injury after what seem to be a fairly innocent fall that most would just shrug off.
Always seems to me his natural reactions when he goes over are all wrong and he gets tangled in his kit. Maybe a bit of practice controlling it would help.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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A few thoughts:
1. always keep your skis on if you can - dig something in (hand, pole) and you will pivot around this until your ski(s) is/are down hill. Dig the edges in.
2. if your skis go then the push up does work unless it's really steep and icy
3. if it is very icy then poles can help. With one hand on the grip of the pole, take the other hand and grip far down the pole, near the basket. Roll onto your front. Withe the pole under/across your chest, dig the tip of the pole into the snow/ice in front of your chest so that the weight of your torso is applied to your arm and the pole tip. This is similar to ice axe self arrest technique. Although I don't generally use wrist straps in trees and powder, I do use them when on steep, icy terrain.
If it's really steep and icy.... be lucky! Ayrshire Andy probably did all anyone could have done but still needed a little luck that those backflips didn't take him into something bad (felt a bit sick reading his discription).
Pam said
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sounds like a fun day
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about practising how to deal with a slide.
Yeah, I'd not recommend it as a sport in its own right but you need to see it in the same way as practicing using an avalanche transceiver if you ski off-piste - necessary preparation.
In reality, a slide on-piste will seldom have terrible consequences. It's more of an issue when there are cliffs, boulders and trees about.
Cheers,
J
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| kamikaze wrote: |
| The general principle is to try and minimise the area you have in contact with the ground. |
When I first read this, I thought that it was the kamikaze approach to stopping , for my method is exactly the opposite, i.e. maximise the area in contact with the ground, so that friction can slow you down. However, having looked at the link provided, it all seemed very plausible.
Having slept on it, though, I am no longer so convinced. My technique, as far as it is possible, is to get my skis below me and use the edges to stop. I can't say that I've ever had the problem of being flipped over. Trying to explain the differences in approach, I wondered whether the method suggested by kamikaze is more for climbing or, in a skiing context, more suitable in extreme situations, e.g. very steep gullies. Although black pistes may feel steep when you are on them, I'm not sure that most are so steep that the only way to stop is to dig your arms in. I also wonder whether the arm-digging-in method would work so well on normal ski pistes, which are often hard or icy. I also think that the piste is usually quite rough, with ripples and bumps, so my argument about the friction effect might be valid. Whether one might "sledge" in ski gear, I do not know. Obviously, if you can jam your arms into the snow, that would help stop you but, thinking again of the hardness of pistes, I fear you might just slide on your arms. Then the ski edges might have a better chance of stopping you.
I'm not sure that I fancy testing the two theories in advance (on appropriately steep slopes) - the cure might be worse than the disease!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I think if you went practising you'd want to make sure your powder skirt was done up first!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Megamum, real men do not wear skirts 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| espri wrote: |
| kamikaze wrote: |
| The general principle is to try and minimise the area you have in contact with the ground. |
When I first read this, I thought that it was the kamikaze approach to stopping , for my method is exactly the opposite, i.e. maximise the area in contact with the ground, so that friction can slow you down. However, having looked at the link provided, it all seemed very plausible.
Having slept on it, though, I am no longer so convinced. My technique, as far as it is possible, is to get my skis below me and use the edges to stop. I can't say that I've ever had the problem of being flipped over. Trying to explain the differences in approach, I wondered whether the method suggested by kamikaze is more for climbing or, in a skiing context, more suitable in extreme situations, e.g. very steep gullies. Although black pistes may feel steep when you are on them, I'm not sure that most are so steep that the only way to stop is to dig your arms in. I also wonder whether the arm-digging-in method would work so well on normal ski pistes, which are often hard or icy. I also think that the piste is usually quite rough, with ripples and bumps, so my argument about the friction effect might be valid. Whether one might "sledge" in ski gear, I do not know. Obviously, if you can jam your arms into the snow, that would help stop you but, thinking again of the hardness of pistes, I fear you might just slide on your arms. Then the ski edges might have a better chance of stopping you.
I'm not sure that I fancy testing the two theories in advance (on appropriately steep slopes) - the cure might be worse than the disease! |
No, Kamikaze and all the others are right - You use the same principle when you sharpen your skis to get the tiniest contact possible with the snow/ice so they dig in.
The pushing of the body off the snow using hands or elbows (the whole fore-arm may be easiest if you have gained speed) is nothing to do with digging them in - it is to put as much as possible of your weight onto your boot tips - or even better onto the tiny area of your ski edges, if you still have your skis on. Spreading your weight will just make you skim over the surface without anything digging in to stop you.
It sounds like you are using the principle yourself without realizing it. If you aren't in any danger of being flipped over it is probably because you are not on very steep slopes compared to the ones we were talking about (see my link early on this page) where a fall may be fatal if not stopped at once.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Fri 2-01-09 16:52; edited 1 time in total
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Self arrest using pole (pic off Epicski, Bob Barnes I think) but I've seen it demo'd & have practiced it myself on some steep hard pistes & it worked well.
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FAQ
(I have a board strapped to my feet and that helps at times 
Glad you're still with us... though reading that... I'm not quite sure how you achieved it 
