 Poster: A snowHead
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For certain basi courses there is a min turn radius requirement of 18m. What've you bought or hired? Or have you found that the trainers aren't enforcing this? I'd guess spec wise the iM82 or Legend 8000 would just about qualify but would such skis be up to the courses?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I used a pair of Elan Magfire 12 on most days of the BASI courses I did last season (although the turn radius 'requirement' is new this season I think, so these skis were bought by coincidence rather than in response to this rule). I think they're a good compromise ski - 76mm under foot, a 17m turn radius and reasonably stiff for on piste performance. I'd say that a ski of that kind of geometry would be ideal for most general BASI courses (my Elans were recommended to me by a Trainer). No idea if Trainers are enforcing this new rule, but didn't BASI say it would be a recommendation for this season before becoming a requirement for next season (there was a lot of complaints when it was introduced because my instructors had already bought their kit for the coming season).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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All seems ridiculous to me. Either you can ski, or you can't. Kit shouldn't have anything to do with it.
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
| All seems ridiculous to me. |
I agree.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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David Murdoch, However a lot of skiers rely on very turny skis to cover up BIG holes in technical ability. Personally I would say that a longer 'radius' ski is far more versatile than a short 'slalom' radius ski (eg 16m).
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I'd blanked this from my mind. I only own assorted twin tips & a pair of slalom ski's, so I'm stuffed. When I add it up, it's increasingly hard to justify the cost of moving through the system.
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rob@rar, yes, now you mention it, I was reminded of something like that and looked it up - will indeed only be compulsory from 09-10 season. Also in the basi info it says 17m but on the website for devp coach L2 it says 18m. I wonder how strict they'll be. At the kinds of lengths I ski all mountain radii tend to be >17m but not 18m unless really more of big mountain or gs skis.
offpisteskiing, in what way do you think a long radius ski is far more versatile than a slalom radius ski if it is the turny skis that can cover up big holes and by implication the longer radius skis that would leave them exposed?
david@mediacopy, consider hiring for the courses? eg if iM82 is stiff enough, could hire it for £100ish for fortnight
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slikedges, a longer radius ski will be far more stable at high speed in long turns, but can also be worked in shorter turns effectively.
V.short radius skis encourage reliance on sidecut alone to turn the ski, with no development of active rotary or pressure application, ie alot of people get away with simply tipping the skis over, when in fact a good performance requires a blend of tipping, rotary and pressure skills. Stick these people back on straight skis and you'll see what I mean..
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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BASI is right about this one
It's more to do with safety than anything else - anyone who "can" ski will understand this.
Doing bumps or off piste at ISIA or ISTD speeds is not something you want to be doing on short rad skis if you like your knees the way they are meant to be.
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Wayne, nonsense. If you can ski "Doing bumps or off piste at ISIA or ISTD speeds" on short rad skis is perfectly normal behaviour.
offpisteskiing, an interesting take on it. I think I can see what you mean, but I'm not convinced, although the more I think about it I can quite see your argument. I'm not aware I've ever seen anyone who has big technical gaps have the level of skill required. Plus, personally, I find my SLs more versatile than my GSs.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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ha ha OK 
But I think the idea is (can't speak for BASI here by the way) is to make it as safe as poss.
I "can" run accross the M1 but maybe it would be better to use a bridge.
I "can" ski bumps on short rads but maybe it would be better not to
As for off piste - give me a set of fats any day
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Sun 14-12-08 17:13; edited 2 times in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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offpisteskiing, would agree with all that but there will come a point (a product of turn radius, flex stiffness and width underfoot) at which the long radius ski will no longer be able to clean carve a turn of any given shortness of radius. Which skis would you consider, if you were still doing basi courses today?
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You know it makes sense.
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| slikedges wrote: |
| For certain basi courses there is a min turn radius requirement of 18m. |
The BASI requirement is for a 'Ski Radius' not a 'Turn Radius'
The difference has been debated many times on 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
| slikedges wrote: |
| For certain basi courses there is a min turn radius requirement of 18m. |
The BASI requirement is for a 'Ski Radius' not a 'Turn Radius'
The difference has been debated many times on |
And very helpful those debates were too I'm sure. Thank heavens it's self-evident to most. I'll call your ski radius and raise you one sidecut radius.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| offpisteskiing wrote: |
| V.short radius skis encourage reliance on sidecut alone to turn the ski |
Of course, any half decent coach or trainer should be able to spot the different between someone who is railing and someone who is actually carving a turn.
Now, I know that there are plenty of skis with a radius over 18m that aren't GS skis, but the only pair I have with a radius over 18m are GS skis, and I can think of few things I'd less like to ski bumps on (well, SG and DH skis...)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
any half decent coach or trainer should be able to spot the different between someone who is railing and someone who is actually carving a turn.
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Indeedy, but that is of little use to someone who has grown accustomed to skiing this way over time and has 4 days or less to change in order to pass a course...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I had the misfortune to have to sit through a basi debrief and listen to some dribble about ski radius, they told me it was a recommendation based on safety and not a rule. Amazed I listened and remembered that, being on a snowboard course the debrief was of no use to me whatsoever, and was reflected in my feedback paper. 
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slikedges, I thought the radius was for the more "race" oriented modules... Have they changed it to all modules? Which modules is it?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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little tiger, IIRC it is all of the BASI courses except Level 1 Alpine.
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rob@rar, in that case it is a bit ott imo....
Fair enough in the ones that will lead to training for speed test - you need to develop comfort with speed and GS turns and the FIS have regs on skis for safety reasons too... but for all exams - well it should be doable for a decent skier at ISIA level... but a bit unfair to make a L2 buy the skis if they do not have 'em...
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| little tiger wrote: |
| rob@rar, in that case it is a bit ott imo.... |
I would prefer to see it as a recommendation rather than a requirement.
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little tiger, haven't looked at them all but know it'll definitely be needed for isia tech and devp coach L2.
rob@rar, ditto
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Just as well I passed mine on a combination of a traditional (straight!) 204cm K2 Slalom ski & a 207cm Rossi GS ski then back in the day 
I agree with offpisteskiing, so many people nowadays are products of modern ski technology and not sound technique. Don't get me wrong I love the new skis but my knees have never taken such a pounding and I reckon they have made me lazy for sure.
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The requirement is for ISIA and ISTD teach and tech.
The devp coach require both GS and SL skis.
Apparently tt has been put in place for safety reasons - the stats were apparently showing injuries caused by people skiing high speed long radius turns on SL skis.
Personally i disagree with it, as i find my SL skis most versatile, and at no point have i ever felt unsafe on them at speed (admittedly i don't ski that fast!!). But i ski fast enough for ISIA.
I've been advised to get short, off the shelf GS skis.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| beanie1 wrote: |
| I've been advised to get short, off the shelf GS skis. |
I have a pair of 175cm Rossignol 9X World Cup skis that I no longer use. Shorter than a FIS regulation ski, but I think the same construction as its slightly bigger brother. They have a 21m radius and Rossi race plates, but probably no bindings. If they are of interest PM me.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Recommendation of the week from a trainer I skied with on Sunday was Rossi 9X Oversize - 17m at 170cm - performance piste ski with 80cm underfoot (so enough to provide some float).
Most of the Rossi-sponsored trainers have apparently picked up pairs for their ISIA and ISTD courses.
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i just had a week of training with a BASI trainer and used both 15M and 18M radius "all rounders". We did drills and exercises consistent with ISIA Tech exams and i did find that the medium-long radius turns we did were at much higher speeds than anything done at L2 level and the 15's became a bit twitchy and grabby, occassionaly feeling at the edge of control (but could just be me and poor technique). Both skis performed good enough on shorts and SL turns but the 18's needed a quite a bit more "working".
I will be using the 15's as they were a bit more forgiving but wouldnt feel that disadvantaged if I used my 18's compared to someone on race SL skis in short turns. I dont think it is such a bad thing at ISIA/ISTD level to expect people to be able to work the skis and talking to a race coach over the weekend he agreed that very stiff and small radius skis (and in his opinion those with big riser plates and v stiff tails) caused a lot of back problems and some knee injuries if you get too low and spit out.
The trainer said that peeps with a race background on SL skis sometimes look like "one trick ponies" and had trouble varying their turns and blending the steering elements.
My feeling is that although most trainers arent that concerned about what skis you are on they will be more aware of it and will be scrutinising people more at the upper exam levels.
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You know it makes sense.
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
Recommendation of the week from a trainer I skied with on Sunday was Rossi 9X Oversize - 17m at 170cm - performance piste ski with 80cm underfoot (so enough to provide some float).
Most of the Rossi-sponsored trainers have apparently picked up pairs for their ISIA and ISTD courses. |
Bet you any money they don't have 80cm underfoot! 
In fact, I'd be surprised if the 9X Oversize had 80mm underfoot. I rented a pair several years ago and they were a standard piste ski, with maybe 68mm under foot. Have they changed that much in the last five or six years?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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skimottaret, should have renamed them Supersize!
Spent the afternoon on my GS skis (185cm, 65mm under foot and stiff as anything). Exhilaratingly quick, scary but lots of fun (except when I took them off-piste into the trees!). They need more skill than I have at the moment to get the best out of them, but I'm working on that...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar, how are they in bumps my choice of weapon for BASI this year will be 95% dictated by "bumpability" as it looks as though that will be the stilleto in the back pour moi.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| rob@rar, how are they in bumps |
Brilliant!*
* If you want to straight line the bump field, only glancing the tops of a few bumps on your way to warp speed. Otherwise they were impossible to ski.
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skimottaret, I like that site - very interesting reviews... Put me off renting Rossi R9S WC - I think they would chew me up and spit me out of the back door!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, interesting... on my bumps course we joined up with a few others fresh off the GS training lanes for a run down the bumps field and one guy was ex GB team and i heard ranked 30th in WC bumps and when he blasted down didnt look all that good through the bumps. he did moan about having GS skis on.....
I couldnt even get down em but it was interesting to see such a top guy get tossed around on tough equipment.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| red 27 wrote: |
| Put me off renting Rossi R9S WC - I think they would chew me up and spit me out of the back door! |
I have a pair and they are awesome if you ski them hard, but try to slide around on them and they are very unforgiving. Not many places rent race department skis, so if you do want to try a pair I think you'll need to look around a fair bit.
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rob@rar, thanks for the offer but i won't be needing them this season. As I'm female i think the requirement is 15 or 16m - i think the shorter GS skis (162) are about this radius, so that's what i'll be going for.
skimottaret, i wouldn't want to be skiing at high speed on any "all rounder" - I'd feel much more stable on my SL skis than on a 18m "all rounder".
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skimottaret, In all seriousness I wouldn't even attempt to ski bumps on FIS-spec GS skis. I'm just not good enough to drive the skis that hard. It was hard enough trying to blend carved and steered turns with them on nicely prepared red pistes, never mind whip them around quickly in the bumps.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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beanie1, fair point... my head supershape magnums are a bit on the floppy side compared to my SL skis but mucho nicer in the bumps... although skittish at times I never crashed out but did chicken out and skidded a lot in flat light and rollers.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| beanie1 wrote: |
| I've been advised to get short, off the shelf GS skis. |
I have a pair of 175cm Rossignol 9X World Cup skis that I no longer use. Shorter than a FIS regulation ski, but I think the same construction as its slightly bigger brother. They have a 21m radius and Rossi race plates, but probably no bindings. If they are of interest PM me. |
Those are just a standard female FIS legal length, the recommendation from various people is to go for short retail "GS" skis.
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