British Olympic downhiller Konrad Bartelski attacks piste grooming in Kitzbuhel

A snowHead

I'm a fundamentalist by nature. Maybe just a mentalist.
I don't expect everything to be easy. We need challenge. If skiing down a Black run was possible on the first day, where would the challenge be?
Hence I expect things to be difficult.

The solution is probably to have a load of pisted runs and leave some things to sort themselves out.

A snowHead

Interesting discussion, prompted by a quote from Konrad Bartelski about Kitzbuhel's pistes being too easy. This is the same guy who made such a hash of the Querfahrt Traverse on The Streif one year, that he flipped over the safety net into the soft stuff. Or was it so easy that he needed to make the run more difficult? wink

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Its a very controversial subject though because on the one hand you're all saying the runs need less grooming but on the other val d'isere gets slammed every time I go there for not pisting the only blue (santons) back to resort regulaly enough causing a death trap for tired beginners by instructors expert skiers and novices alike. If resorts don't piste the runs the vast majority of skiers won't go back the resort will go bust and there will be no lift accessed off piste. I'm sure you'd prefer some perfectly groomed runs than that. Also I've never been to a resort where there aren't a good few runs covered in massive moguls, medium moguls or just crappy snow which is what some of you seem to want so I don't see what the complaint is. Most of the mountain will always be unpisted.

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and anway something which an olympic skier finds difficult to ski down would just be riddiculous for the rest of us mere mortals

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rambotion, Anything shown as Blue (Green in France/Spain/North America) should always be pisted every night, as it will be expected to be used mainly by beginners.

So should any red/blue home runs, as they will again be used by a lot of near beginners, some of whom will be only just able to cope even if the run is pisted.

Blacks and reds which are not home runs should be left a bit more often, with some of them hardly ever being pisted, in order to give more experienced skiers something more interesting to play on.

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chrisdavis, Although you put a winkie at the end of your post, it does really show your lack of experience in that you clearly have no idea of the difference in abiltiy level between a WC skier like Konrad or the Streiff and the average holiday, or even top level instructor skiing. Nigel Smith once told me that skiing off the Mausefalle (sp?) you left your stomach behind.

Of course you have to be able to deal with all sorts of conditions to be called a good skier, and skidding around on dead flat pistes is never that. Why should you think it 'snobbish'? Technical ability and skill is the basis for being called a 'good skier', if you can't deal with odd conditions you clearly haven't arrived there. There's nothing wrong with wanting to stay where you are, but please don't confuse it with technical skill.

The point is customer demand, by definition most snowheads are unlikely to be 'typical' holiday skiers - they will be more committed or they wouldn't have joined in the first place. The huge majority of holiday skiers demand 'designer skiing' - perfect pistes, perfect snow, perfect weather, and feel hard done by if it's not forthcoming. This is sad but a fact of life. Resorts are in the leisure business - they have to satisfy customer demand or fail to make a profit. OTOH ... where are all of you that like the off piste blacks???? I haven't seen most of you here! wink

After all it is free

Maybe I've got totally the wrong idea but I thought skiing was supposed to be fun!

I do 2 trips a year. One with the boys which involves charging around all day on/off piste, early starts and late finishes, big lunches and a great laugh everyday. The second is with the family, much more easygoing mostly cruising around the blues and easier reds. I love both holidays for different reasons.

Why do I need to concern myself with becoming the perfect technical skier? I don't care as long as I'm having fun.

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Since Konrad's days of being a racer haven't skis changed from being great planks of wood to massive wide piste carving skis, all mountain skis, freeride skis etc. Surely this fact alone makes skiing easier if it is on flat pisted runs or off piste. Not to mention the boots and bindings.

Just to throw in my 1/2 centime.

I can see Bartelski's point. I learned in Scotland in the 70s. I think my first experience of a groomed slope was the White Lady spring 1985 with perfect corduroy and bright blue sun. It was great cos you could hoon down as fast as your little 203s would let you.

I don't disagree with some grooming, but the idea (a la Deer Valley) of intra day grooming is a little OTT. What's more interesting is that some (many) areas now have ungroomed sectors (e.g. "the Stash" in Avoriaz). A happy balance is what we need.

What we really really don't need is re-shaping the mountain to make it easier to ski. Case in point; "l'Aigle" from the Pointe de Nyon, Morzine. I spent many a happy day yo-yoing it in season 88-89. By season 90-91 (I think) a perfectly excellent unpisteable black bumpy run had become an ugly road and a bunch of short pitches with funny cambers criss crossing the road (graded red for some entirely unknown reason. Now it's only entertaining in powder once it's stabilised. AFAIK, There was no need to do this!. The powers that be totally trashed an excellent run. (If it was to enhance safety then fair enough - and I could see that as being the reason. If that's not ... well... Idiots.) It has also left a very ugly scar on the mountainside.

Ah, that maybe reminds me, maybe it had to be done to get the chairlift repositioned. Anyway...

I don't want to sound unsympathetic, but full on areas need to offer a full range of difficulties. Skiing wasn't meant to be made so easy that we'd need to call it snowboarding. Natural challenges should remain.

(I am not an ex-WC racer).

((I do wear a catsuit)).

(((My "new" one has eyes on the back))). Twisted Evil

You know it makes sense.

Most of my piste sking is actually down the sides of the pistes... what's the problem Laughing

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I heard a discussion on the radio this morning about golf courses, along these lines. It was the tail end of a piece about a "natural" course in a sensitive area on the east coast of Scotland. The promoter of the new course thought there would be a growing market for a more natural course, less manicured. More like, he said, courses were 100 years ago. There are obviously already some areas like that in skiing (La Grave was mentioned above) and maybe there will be a demand for more of the same in future. It would be very odd if all skiers wanted the same kind of resort; some people want to go on the equivalent of a Sunday stroll round an urban park. Others the equivalent of a wild November day in the Cuillins. One problem, I suppose, is that most resorts try to market themselves as all things to all men when they are patently nothing of the sort.

But someone like Bartelski will presumably find practically anything easy? He's hardly your average punter.

Anyway, grumpy old gits always reckon things were harder in their young days. wink

A snowHead

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

chrisdavis, "plastic shells" you lucky bar steward. We were lucky if we had leather lace ups. My first skiing experience and I kid not included toe bindings attached directly to feet using spiked aluminium plates. They were supposed to be used ( I guess) with hiking boots bit I had rubber wellies on. Hence the holes in my feet and much blood later.

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Rubber wellies.....Luuuxurrrry!

When I were a lad we used to have to get up half an hour before we went to bed, chop down a tree using only a spoon, whittle our skis wit t'spoon, trap a rabbit, skin it wit' own teeth, make boots witht'fur, tie em to t'skis with twisted grass then hike 20 miles to nearest snowpatch over broken glass....

....but we were happy

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fatbob, 'er indoors, her dad (Honest and I really must dig out the photos) learnt to ski with wooden clogs nailed to old barrel staves. really truly honest he did.

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An Austrian friend of mine grew up on an Austrian farm in the midle of nowhere. He was one of many children and buying lift tickets or equipment was just too expensive. They did however manage to obtain an old pair of skis and boots, just the one pair for all the children to learn. The younger / smaller the child was the more 'stuff' (socks etc) had to be used to get a 'good boot fit'. A child would ski down a small hill and then have to walk back up with the skis and pass on for the next childs tun. After a fall the binding often didn't open, instead the ski with boot attached just came off. By the end of the day there wasn't a dry sock in the house.

After all it is free

They had a house?

Until you got to that point, I pictured them deriving warmth from their livestock - this is how mountain people traditionally endured the winter. (Not sure if I made that up. It's possible it's true)

barry, Tim Henman at his peak was ranked number 5 in the world, common perception is quite often complete rubbish.

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DB,

I may have missed it, but no one seems to have stated one of the majot benefits of grooming. If you take a look at the cruisy reds/blues at the end of a busy day in Feb when there has been no snow for a while, you will see a murky brown slope which is almost unskiable. Take a look the next morning, and it is white again! As someone further up said, there does seem a certain degree of "ski snobbery" from some on here. What percentage of people on the slopes (not on SH) would enjoy a week skiing on crud? I agree that the process of learning has got much easier, but surely thats a good thing? I also agree that some people use excessive speed (happens in all walks of life, and would happen on "un-groomed" pistes. Also remember, that the grooming is making the avalache risk that much less. The challenges are there for those that want them. Personally, I like to have the choice of whizzing down a groomed red or black, or choosing another route which may be off-piste. If you go to the right place, you will find everything you need. To go back to the driving analogy, 50 years ago it was much more difficult to drive (no power steering, heavy clutches, using real pressure on the brakes) - should we get rid of all the things that have made it easier?

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Hmmm I reckon both sides here have a point, I guess its all up to careful use of pisting machines IMO. For example in Scotland I am sure if pistes were not bashed occasionally the runs would degrade far quicker, looking after what snow there is important. I have seen the same in Europe where the pisteurs bulldoze snow out of the trees onto the slopes in poor seasons.

Also, I only went once to NA - skiing to Alta. There they had a small percentage of the "in bounds" skiing that were pisted every day without fail, the rest of the in bounds patrolled areas were completely unpisted. Does Europe have something to learn from the USA in this respect?? Puzzled

A snowHead

The ski areas of the Scottish Highlands are a good case study in this discussion, because the issue is more about mountain modification than piste grooming (which, if responsibly done, doesn't destroy the underlying vegetation/soil/scree etc). Scottish ski areas are largely unspoilt in that respect. It would be interesting to know if the piste which Konrad Bartelski focused on has been bulldozed and re-shaped since he was a kid.

A snowHead

Many years ago I wasn't satisfied unless I'd ticked off all the black runs a resort had, these days if its been pisted, a black run has nothing to offer.
As years have gone by and confidence and skills have grown, the fear of the steepness has been overcome and speed control isn't a problem, in a lot of cases, they become the dullest runs in a resort.
Nowadays I don't really bother about the colour of the run and just look for runs with character.

scotabroad, Europe is slowly learning from our colonial cousins and creating patrolled unpisted freeride areas .
If more resorts don't follow this route it will drive more people to go and duck the ropes to get their thrills with inevitable consequences.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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barry, I hope you meant that as a joke? Have you ever skied with Konrad? Or any WC skier for that matter? I doubt it. He did fantastic things over a fairly long period of time with almost no backup at all. So he makes a living off it now? What do you think other retired ski racers do? To be fair, I would rate Martin Bell higher because of constency over a period of time, and Alain Baxter the best of all of our recent skiers. How anyone can suggest that Konrad is in the same league as Eddie Edwards is seriously rude, Eddie's a nice bloke, but he never did have any success (lots of bottle), Konrad was successful, and Tim Henman was really good. What's wrong with Brits? Why do people think it's so funny to slag off our success stories? Maybe that's why we're often so cr*p!

And before anyone tells me to find a sense of humour - a bit of respect for people who've excelled at our chosen sport would be good. The presence of a winkie doesn't excuse this sort of disrespect, and these people don't deserve it. Evil or Very Mad

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easiski,

not meant as a joke - just simply disagreeing with the common assertion the he is the best ever - clearly not, hence my over-rated comment - there are other atheletes with far far superior records and truly much closer to the world elite (eg Baxter). As for Brit atheletes, to be fair I think the press is a big problem - building them up to be the best thing since sliced bread and truly the best there's ever been anywhere in the world (the press with Henman during any Wimbledon is a good example, orthe English football team during any world cup - jesus it's been 40 years, get over it!) - it puts a lot of pressure on these guys and gals when they simply aint at that level. As for respect and disrespect, well that's mine to give out / withhold as i like. Very Happy

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After all it is free

Konrad's 2nd place at Val Gardena is one of my favourite British sporting moments - up there with Redgrave's 5th gold and the mens 4X400m relay at the 1991 World Athletics Championships.
My earlier post (with winkie) was not intended to be disrespectful, it was pointing out the irony I saw in his quoted comments - based on an incident that happened in one of his races, which just happened to be in Kitzbuhel.

Perspective.

ah, now Redgrave, that's a different kettle of fish - a bona fide great. that level of training, competition, success and longevity, whilst living with diabetes in later years. compare that with Henman, Bartelski, footie teams etc etc and maybe you can see my point. anyways, what was the original subject of this thread?? oh yeah, that's right it was something i dont really care about Laughing

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barry, so the only people who warrant your respect are the likes of Redgrave? In fact, is there anyone else of that stature who has dominated his sport for the length of time that Redgrave did? You can't respect that many people. BTW, have you ever skied with anyone who competes?

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British Olympic downhiller Konrad Bartelski attacks piste grooming in Kitzbuhel

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