 Poster: A snowHead
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The accidents have started, a few so far over the other side of the Pond, with today's report of a fatality at Mount Holly in the US, an out of control youngster of just 12 taking a bend too fast and crashing into a tree. He wasn't wearing a helmet. This follows three fatalities so far this year at the Breckenbridge ski area, the latest on New Year's Eve when a 42 year old snowboarder died, also after colliding with a tree (he did have a helmet).
Report from the Oakland Press
To put things in perspective the report concludes:
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According to the National Ski Areas Association, the number of fatalities on the slopes is very low. In 2002-2003, 37 people died of skiing- or snowboarding-related incidents, with about 13 million participants. In that year, there were also 33 serious injuries.
The association says that death and injury rates for skiiers are no higher than in similar sports, such as swimming. In 2002, there were about 2,000 fatalities in that sport, which had about 54 million participants. There were also 700 fatalities relating to bicycling in 2002 out of about 41 million participants.
To prevent accidents and fatalities, the association - which includes 325 member resorts - asks skiiers to stay on trails that are within their ability, use devices to prevent runaway equipment, observe posted signs and warnings, be able to get on and off the lifts and practice courteous habits on the slopes. |
Skiing down the tricky and very icy narrow black from the top of the Aiguille Rouge in Les Arcs last week with the kids, we'd just completed the first sharp right, taking it easy in heavy traffic, when a completely out of control woman skier came flying round the bend, glancing off my youngest (sending him sliding about 50m down the slope), her momentum carrying her into the netting at speed. She was a 'big' lady. A couple of the netting poles were dislodged, and she was left stuck like a fly in a web, half over the edge, a drop of several hundred, very rocky metres.
It took me about 10 minutes to extract her, unclipping her skis, gradually extracting limbs from the netting. She was extremely shaken up, but still argued that she had done nothing wrong! A Brit, start of holiday syndrome, somewhere between beginner and intermediate, had no knowledge whatsoever of piste rules giving priority to the downhill skier. Timothy was snowploughing in a straight line behind a group of relative beginners struggling down when she hit him from behind.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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[url=http://www.newsday.com/news/local/state/ny-bc-ct--snowboarderdeath0104jan03,0,2016931.story?coll=ny-region-apconnecticut>]Newsday[/url] reports another snowboarder fatality yesterday, an 18 year old this time.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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PG, I would have left her dangling, most probably practising a few words that I very rarely use.
Why is the concept of the downhill skier having priority so difficult for some skiers to understand. If you shunt into the back of somebody's car there is no debate about who bears responsibility for the accident. Why is it any different in skiing?
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| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
PG, I would have left her dangling, most probably practising a few words that I very rarely use.
Why is the concept of the downhill skier having priority so difficult for some skiers to understand. If you shunt into the back of somebody's car there is no debate about who bears responsibility for the accident. Why is it any different in skiing? |
Last week was pretty busy though, it'll quiet down for a few weeks now. It's some sort of "I'm here on holiday" syndrome that enables people to ignore everyone around them.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Skiing in Val d'Isere just before christmas, with a friend who is only in her second week, and is quite nervous, a whole load of guys came barreling past, each one narrowly missing my friend, and one of them swearing at her as he skiied over her skis.
When I went to have a quiet word I found out that they were with the British army, and one of them told me that collisions were "inevitable" when the piste was busy. They seemed to have no idea of giving way to the person below them on the piste.
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Sorry to hear about that incident, PG. I can imagine my terror at seeing my own kid being knocked into a slide at that location. As for the woman, I shouldn't be surprised if the experience shocks her into giving up the sport, which is one solution!
That said, I don't think the actions of skiers who deliberately ski at speed and take people out should be confused with skiers who 'lose it' because their abilities aren't up to the prevailing conditions, but the fact that the latter have a habit of colliding with people below certainly doesn't mitigate their responsibility. It's a good idea if skiers carry on with instruction until they can handle all snow conditions and gradients they want to expose themselves to.
From the description, this woman shouldn't have been on the Aiguille Rouge in those conditions in the first place. She was either misled, ignored posted warnings (if they were there), or over-estimated her ability.
The continuing deaths from tree collisions in the US actually has a commercial explanation, to some extent. Many US ski areas have deliberately opened up 'gladed' ski runs, because skiing between trees is perceived as more appealing than skiing down the typical cleared avenues cut through the forests (which tend to cover American mountains in total, because of the much higher tree line in the States vis-a-vis the Alps).
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 4-01-05 10:53; edited 1 time in total
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| Kramer wrote: |
Skiing in Val d'Isere just before christmas, with a friend who is only in her second week, and is quite nervous, a whole load of guys came barreling past, each one narrowly missing my friend, and one of them swearing at her as he skiied over her skis.
When I went to have a quiet word I found out that they were with the British army, and one of them told me that collisions were "inevitable" when the piste was busy. They seemed to have no idea of giving way to the person below them on the piste. |
Why not contact the secretary of the Army Wintwer Sports Association - details at the bottom of the page here? The armed forces are concerned about their members' contact with the public.
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So they should be. When I worked on Cairngorm, plenty of soldiers learned to ski on the mountain, usually with utterly obsolete equipment. They blundered and careered down the slopes like crazed gorillas.
I once heard a sergeant instructing his men to ski: "You stand like this, like you're standing to attention".
Luckily, they tended to keep to their own part of the hill away from the lifts because the idea was to get them to climb up rather than use the chairs/T's !
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I shall take a closer look next time I go up to the Aiguille Rouge, but I don't recall any warnings at the cablecar station. I actually looked before going up as our 24 year old daughter with average skiing ability (and short on confidence) was with us. Thinking about it, we'd taken the red from the top because the first section of the black was closed, but in those conditions - dodging scattered rocks large and small on a hard surface with icy patches, the piste only a few metres wide at that point and quite steep - quite a proportion of those going down only had very limited control.
I've seen far easier blacks - makes you wonder whether they classify it a red so that more people are attracted to the resort in the first place, to do the 'famous' Aiguille Rouge run. Bit like the end of the Cachette where it suddenly becomes a blue just above Arc 1600, despite being both steep and often very icy. Perhaps there should be some kind of independent authority that goes around the resorts classifying the various runs, rather than allow the resorts any say in the matter.
Apart from that instruction is key. Trouble is most people don't bother. And the "I'm on holiday" rush doesn't help, though it was on Friday so you'd have thought people would have calmed down a little by then.
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I reckon steep icy pistes are almost as serious a risk as avalanches. If resorts don't post ice warnings, it's no surprise if serious accidents occur.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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ise, or a Saturday when the vast majority of people are arriving/leaving so many of the runs are empty !
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D G Orf, quite, Saturday's the day Mrs Ise and I always try to get out together and ski, it's the nicest day by far.
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You know it makes sense.
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ise, true - the initial buzz might have eased off a little, but as you say, over-confidence is no better. Often people don't realise how flattering a fresh fall of snow can be to their skiing... one day they can be carving away thinking they've cracked it, then the conditions change and they're back to being novices again.
We skied right down to Villaroger and were messing around off-piste in the trees waiting for oldest daughtest who was making her way gently down the quite narrow blue. A German came steaming down with teenage family in tow, let out a yell that sounded suspiciously like an annoyed Teutonic equivalent of "Coming through!" just as he was coming up behind daughter (who promptly fell over) and carried on, ignoring her. Needless to say by then I'd had enough and caught up with him to have a few words. His excuse was that he only saw her as he came out of a bend and thought he was going too fast to avoid a collision, and that she was "skiing all over the piste" (she was actually skiing tight turns, although it was quite narrow and there wasn't much room to overtake). He was pretty angry, but eventually calmed down when I explained the 'skiing under control' and priority rules. No apology though.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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PG, apologies seem to be hard to come by, Mrs Ise was stood by the side of the piste the other blowing her nose when someone skied into her, she turned round and asked if they were going to say sorry and got a surly "I suppose so" 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
So they should be. When I worked on Cairngorm, plenty of soldiers learned to ski on the mountain, usually with utterly obsolete equipment. They blundered and careered down the slopes like crazed gorillas.
I once heard a sergeant instructing his men to ski: "You stand like this, like you're standing to attention".
Luckily, they tended to keep to their own part of the hill away from the lifts because the idea was to get them to climb up rather than use the chairs/T's ! |
Hmm. Naturally, I am biased. But in the Air Force we liked to think we did things well. Instruction, usually using resort-based instructors, was heavily encouraged with the Service skiing I did.
To be fair to the Army, I do think that reporting bad skiing behaviour to their authorities would probably receive a positive reaction.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Nick Zotov, my Dad (ex-RAF) tells a similar stort of tuition to the Army one stated further up. I guess things improved 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Nick Zotov, the 7th "Bataillon de Chasseurs Alpins" is based in Bourg St Maurice, some of the best skiers you'll see on the slopes. They have a sports club with a ski section that is open to non-military members as well, young and old, very good value. Never see any bad behaviour from their skiers on the slopes - in fact I reckon some of the misbehaving tourists could do with being conscripted for a few days as a punishment, might do them some good
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Tue 4-01-05 14:12; edited 1 time in total
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skanky, PG, I did receive some instruction from Air Force instructors. But the majority was from ESF or other local ski schools contracted by the RAF Winter Sports Association. The association encouraged both having a go at competitive skiing - which I was never excelled in, but enjoyed thoroughly, and improving skiing technique by professional instruction. I believe it still does this. Available at lowish cost to all ranks, btw. I don't remember bad skiing behaviour being a problem. I do recall the Air Commodore in charge not being happy with the social behaviour in the resort once, calling everyone together, and reading the riot act at us - including the real threat of instant return to uit from the slopes - at offenders' expense!
Not sure that I ever wish to see conscription - it would be a real headache for professional forces. The one merit I see in it is that very many families would have an involvement in any government committment of troops - so encouraging further democratic involvement in such commitment.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Tue 4-01-05 13:32; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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PG, completely agree and not only are they well behaved on the slopes they're well behaved in the bars/restuarants as well. They also look like some of the fittest guys I've seen.
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I was once on a ski trip with a guy that used to be in the army as an officer. He had painful memories of ski races where he was crying from fear and pain as he went down the course, knowing that he had to really push it as he could not allow himself to be beaten by all of the squaddies.
He also mentioned that the squaddies were completely fearless as, to them, a broken leg was just a time spent recovering on full pay.
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I find that middle age, having kids, knackered knees, a mortgage and an overdeveloped wimp gland are all useful when deciding just how fast to descend!! 
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Nick Zotov, it wasn't bad behaviour, or a cause of it, apparently. Mainly it was the cause of some bumbling, falling down the pistes. This was 30-40 years ago.
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Nick Zotov, I was quite surprised to find this attitude myself. I've had quite a lot to do with the armed services in the past, and always found them to be nothing less than helpful. This lot didn't have any identifying features, so I'm not sure which regiment that they were from. They weren't rude, just a little surly.
It doesn't surprise me that the RAF are a lot better, after all they usually are the best behaved service.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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As I say above, the incident involving PG's child strongly suggests a woman out of her depth. Modern resort management does require - at the least - prominent warnings when conditions are likely to precipitate loss of control by skiers who don't know how to handle ice.
It would be very interesting to know the French ski patrol codes of practice on this, as it's the crucial grey area before a slope is roped off as too dangerous for anyone.
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David Goldsmith, the trouble is that it isn't just on icy steeps that the problem exists - it's endemic. We used to put up (the lift company here in LDA I mean) signs telling people to slow down at intersections, but they all seem to go faster the instant they see a sign like this, so the DAL took them down - it doesn't seem to have made any difference though - they speed just the same - no consideration at all. However the majority of skiers seem to think they're Bode Miller even if they can only snowplough. Yesterday I tried to stop a snowplough turner going off to the Black combe Valentin here (about 32 deg at the top and hard at the moment) - no joy at all. I won't ski this run after 3.30 in the afternoon - my life's too valuable!
Alan Craggs, I'll write to Mad dog tomorrow - I didn't know about this. Thanks for the info, but it just proves that us professionals can be out of a job/career etc through no fault of our own, and assuming there's a percentage risk that includes the actual time you spend on the pistes then clearly we're much more at risk than a holiday skier. However the holiday skier's risk is of not being able to ski (probably not losing his/her livelihood).
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You know it makes sense.
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Agreed. The last thing we want is some tight regulation that prevents us all enjoying ourselves. However, the key is all of us enjoying ourselves - not just a select few "snowligans" caning it out-of-control down the greens & blues.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Kramer, I'd probably say they were on a regimental ski holiday rather than a properly instructed Army excercise, as the vast majority of us learn to ski either the Alpine Training Centre in Germany, or in Norway. The Army techniques I think have changed a great deal of recent years, and still better than the techniques that I know the Italian Army use to teach their soldiers to ski - which generally involve - heres a black run - see you at the bottom.
Our instruction does vary in quality - and it doesn't seem to have a great deal to do with it being military or civillian instructors either - a French instructor at the ATC seemed pretty content on trying to get his course, who'd never skied, killed in the first couple of days on snow, on the flip side, our civillian instructor took a great deal of time drumming technique, safe skiing rules and accident procedures into us before he let us loose on any runs.
Unfortunatly, at the end of the day, if someone wants to act like an a*se on the slopes, they will do, regardless what instruction they may have had, and seeing as I'm the only skiing member of my group of otherwise boarding friends, I tend to stuggle to point out that the same skiers that annoy them, annoy the majority of us too (same goes for boarders!) - I've already got a sweepstake running on how many people are going to get clobbered with my poles for running over my skis for no reason
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Poster: A snowHead
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And a new phenomenon - slope rage - in this article from the Scotsman quoting an insurance company. Road rage is bad enough.
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The company added that slope range can lead to further problems, in terms of liability claims, if someone is injured as a result of reckless or out-of-control behaviour.
The number of liability claims lodged in American resorts has soared in recent years, with the trend spreading to Europe, as part of the name and blame mentality that is taking over, the company said. |
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Whilst I accept that there have always been bad/dangerous skiers out there it does seem that we are now getting more bad/careless skiers, the only thing I can put this down to is the fact that so many skiers (and boarders) seem to take the absolute minimum of instruction, when I started skiing as a small child just over 30 years ago the ski school in Wengen did 2 lessons per day, the morning one concentrated on skills and the afternoon session would be the use of those skills on the mountain, so for example the morning session might concentrate on how to turn on or arround bumps whilst the
afternoon would be used to find as many mogul fields as possible to try out the lessons learnt.
These lessons were both fun and enjoyable but they also taught basic ski safety along with how to behave arround other skiers, now today Wengen has just one class lesson each morning all be it for a longer time, whilst in the afternoon the ski instructors take private classes, everything now seems to be geared towards teaching people to be able to ski from the top of a red run down to the bottom as rapidly as possible with the minimum amount of time spent teaching basic piste safety.
I'm not saying that the ski schools are responsible, rather it is the ever more hectic world in which we live where people want to gain as much from there skiing holidays as possible, and where cheap flights have made it possible to have several winter holidays each year, thus they may take more than one snow sports holiday at different locations each time but not really progress significantly with their ski skills or their ski safety
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I don't think this is a problem limited to the Brits or the Army, I have been 'taken' out by Germans before. This guy skied straight into me with a sliding tackle. I assumed he was out of control but the way his mates were laughing and the complete lack of any sort of apology and the smirk on his face led me to think they were doing this on purpose. If I had come to this conclusion early enough I probably would have smacked him. Not that that is any better way to behave but there are enough accidents on the slopes without adding to them.
It is everyones responsibilty to ski in control and sometimes this is beyond us, the only thing you can say about the English women I hope she scared herself enough to resolve to ski more in control or get instruction or something...!!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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JT,
| Quote: |
I don't think this is a problem limited to the Brits or the Army, I have been 'taken' out by Germans before
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I agree it seems to be a general drop in the standards for all rather than one particular countries poor performance
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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D G Orf,
I must admit I was a bit wild when I started and this was down to be young, fit and brave/foolhardy.
I hope it is something you learn when you grow up and I have....learnt, that is..!! So what this women's excuse was I don't know.
But because skiing is so popular now and the slopes can be so crowded it appears that some policing will appear
in the future, MOT's and skiing tests. I am only half joking here...!!
I mean, insurance isn't compolsory...!!
Does anyone know how other nations regard insurance and is it likely to be young and skint skiers/boarders who skimp on this..?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Probably nothing to do with PG's incident, but I reckon another problem is people losing it when they're cajoled into skiing something that's beyond them by their boy/girl friend, best mate, even parent, etc. "Yeah you'll manage - it's great fun - got to get to the restaurant, etc, etc". Often, the cajoler is able to get down themselves, but not good enough or considerate enough to help their "friend". A gnarled old ski instructor once said to me "on the slopes, your best friend is your worst enemy", and I think there's some truth in that.
On the subject of Alpine troops, I was once at the Oktoberfest, surrounded by a bunch of extremely drunk, about to be de-mobbed German conscripts wielding ice axes in great arcs around their heads! A colleague and I were dressed in business suits trying very hard to blend in. I swear these guys thought we were German, even though our German was limited to O-level plus a few evening classes. Anyway, I'm sure they skied pretty well when sober!
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Is the whole thing not basically the same as everything else? People are broadening horizons and have neither the manners, sense or intelligence to tackle additional challenges..... it is the same everywhere..... go onto a golf course and the same thing will be happening. Go onto the roads, the same thing happens. People just have reached and gone beyond the limits of what Mr Average can cope with, no amount of persuasion (taking the roads as example) will make things safe. So although blame can be place (for skiing) on the downhill person, the only way to remain safe is that, as the downhill skier, you simply have to do the job of the guy above you as well..... the old saying 'If you want something done right, do it yourself' really holds true.
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| buns wrote: |
| ..... Go onto the roads, the same thing happens... |
Actually, I think that when roads get really congested the reverse may be true. As a country hick driving round London, recently, I was struck by the good manners, and give and take on the North and South Circular roads. Could be that when the going gets really tough, people get nicer so that everyone can survive.
I can do going off at a tangent
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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buns, you're right in a way, if you break your neck, apportioning blame is secondary. I used to cycle around London (Shepherds Bush, Marble Arch etc.) and know that it is possible to keep out of trouble if you're skilled and alert. At the moment I worry more about children who aren't as able to defend themselves. For this reason I'm inclined to choose an 'inferior' resort that doesn't attract as many yobs.
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| Nick Zotov wrote: |
Could be that when the going gets really tough, people get nicer so that everyone can survive.
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It could go either way. It natural disasters there's solidarity. In daily commuting problems there's road rage.
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FAQ
You're joking aren't you ? 
