 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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That's about the time I started (ish) but my first few lessons were in Austria, I can't recall them teaching us that way exactly. Was there a different approach there?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Yoda, fascinating, thank you. It took me years to get rid of the bad habits that instruction like that did for me. Just watching that video brings back the nightmares!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| comprex wrote: |
| d'ya notice the (lack of) counter? |
Only in the demo (I do remember being told to face the tips of the skis in France), there was counter in the Free skiing.
| comprex wrote: |
| can anyone explain the importance of 'flex down' in that context (riding the ski through the turn)? |
Mainly to get ready to "flex up" again 
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comprex, I did the step up quite well, and I still do it when that part of my brain takes over!
The flex down could be to absorb pressure at the end of the turn, but is probably done for effect rather than having a practical purpose! It is such a stylised way to ski. Even with the old long, straight skis, was that the most efficient way to use the kit?
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As I heard the opening words of that video I had great sense of (appropriately enough) déja vu. I've probably still got it somewhere. I have to say that I would not be devastated to be able to ski through the powder like that.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'll try to post the "instructional" bits and then the esf guys free skiing. Watching one on a monoski made me wonder if a few goes on one would help lower level intermediates get the feel of using both legs/feet to direct their skis - I've noticed that many at that level struggle with powering through bumps and slush for example because they can't seem to keep both skis going the same way. Never tried a mono myself, anyone who has have any thoughts on the matter?
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rob@rar, I am wondering how much of that "flex down" redirected pressure -> forward to the ski tips, creating a longer edge and alleviating skid possibility.
| Mosha Marc wrote: |
Only in the demo (I do remember being told to face the tips of the skis in France), there was counter in the Free skiing.
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Which wasn't restricted to 'basic' parallel. Eagerly awaiting more vid.
| pam w wrote: |
| I have to say that I would not be devastated to be able to ski through the powder like that. |
Except for the stemming steps and the jump, there is nothing there you can't do, easily, on modern gear.
| Yoda wrote: |
| Watching one on a monoski made me wonder if a few goes on one would help lower level intermediates get the feel of using both legs/feet to direct their skis - I've noticed that many at that level struggle with powering through bumps and slush for example because they can't seem to keep both skis going the same way. Never tried a mono myself, anyone who has have any thoughts on the matter? |
Worked for me; I spent 3 hours on a mono then could do no wrong on 68mm skis in 2.5 feet of new powder.
Never learned turn release on the mono, so I spent most of the first hour falling over after turning all the way uphill. Maybe retraction could have been the answer? I never really got around to extending and retracting on it, somehow it seemed to freeze that instinct in me. Maybe I got a fair bit lazy once the pow was super-easy- I do know that, coming back from the mono-inspired 68mmski powgasm, I simply couldn't get my feet to extend and retract in bumps at all.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Thu 6-11-08 23:19; edited 2 times in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| comprex wrote: |
| rob@rar, I am wondering how much of that "flex down" redirected pressure -> forward to the ski tips, creating a longer edge and alleviating skid possibility. |
How? By pushing on to the front of the boots?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Flexing down pretty much has to close the ankle; those were some big rigid boot behemoths, even small ankle closure meant big force to front as well as down.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Can't see the video (yet ) but what is all this step up and and step down lark..? Just watch Stenmark..thats what everyone wanted to do anyway, wasn't it..? 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Oh Lord - I think I still do some of that stuff! OK, so not to such an exaggerated extent, but I do still often lift my uphill ski trough the turn when I'm feeling lazy 
I look forward to further excerpts from these guys - if nothing else but to remind me what NOT to do.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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VolklAttivaS5, zammo, one can call it
"what NOT to do"
or one can call it
"what we don't do now on piste but might come in frighteningly useful in bumps or pow, particularly the unweight and steering/pivoting bits but sometimes the stepping too"
or
"petunia"
or
...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Yoda wrote: |
| No. 3 - The GT Turn |
The commentary described seven separate actions in that turn. It's a wonder that anyone learned to ski! What more goodies do we have to look forward to?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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The only thing about learning that way is that once mastered peope actually knew what they were trying to do...they didn't have to be stepped-walked every inch like they do know.
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When was that...??? I'm guessing late 70's or so....
Pretty chummy skiing..
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Wow! Watching that video was like stepping back in time... but only a few years. Word-for-word, that is how I was taught to parallel turn in Courchevel by an ESF instructor 3 years ago. 
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comprex, said to me
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Except for the stemming steps and the jump, there is nothing there you can't do, easily, on modern gear.
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I think what comprex meant was "There's nothing there one can't do, easily, on modern gear". He hasn't seen me try!
Phil Smith and others advocate starting turns with a small stem in difficult conditions. Is that very different?
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Steilhang, fashion? They are skiing way better than 90% of the psoters on here will ever do, but for some reason they are 'doing it wrong'. I don't get it either.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Maybe when we see them "free skiing" we'll see the differences between the somewhat stylised "feet together banking" approach and a, shall we say, more "dynamic" style?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Lizzard, my thoughts were along similar lines - which is why I said I'd not be devastated if I could ski powder like that! An understatement.... I'd be thrilled. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I did take a tiny bit of comfort from comprex's remarks that not all these old techniques are or should be unusable.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Yoda wrote: |
| Maybe when we see them "free skiing" we'll see the differences between the somewhat stylised "feet together banking" approach and a, shall we say, more "dynamic" style? |
Hmm. I don't see any banking! They are controlling direction by using the technique of 'umsteigen' which means transfering your weight from the downhill to uphill ski and unweighting to initiate the turn. They control the turn by applying pressure on the shin... Costs a lot of energy compared to carving technique, which seems to rely a lot more on banking than the old style. What I am glad about is that the boots glued together stupidity has gone out of fashion. I never followed it and if you try it on carvers you generally have an accident
Skiing in ungroomed I still use unweighting to initiate my turns unless I am on wide skis and going fast enough to float in which case I just kind of bank...
Time to take some lessons I think!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Steilhang, Lizzard, pam w, I'm with you guys on this. I really don't get the concept that these people are somehow "doing it wrong". I can't even think of an analogy to this that would help me understand. yes, the equipment has changed, but what I think most people forget is that they are skiing incontrol with their skis parallel (ie not a snowplough) isn't that what most people who can ski do or aim to do. Their legs aren't exactly glued together, they're close together but they are working independently.
I learnt to ski like this, and actually, the basic skills I learnt when I had lessons in "the new style" seemed very similar. In fact some of the new concepts introduced seemed to me, to be considered "best practice" only because more people were able to do it. Skiing parallel with your legs working independtly and closely, not splayed out miles apart, is hard to master. It seems to me that because it's quite hard people have said, we don't do that anymore, you're doing it wrong, you need to be all legs apart and bent over. For me, that was how I started, all bent over and legs spread out and wanted to get away from that because it wasn't a particularly efficient way to ski and it looked terrible.
A recent instructor said to me something like - if you have a "preconception or a self image of skiing neatly, and that's what you want to achieve then you wont be a good skier. You need to forget what you look like and be all dynamic and aggressive". I still have my doubts about this idea. I want to "look good" when I ski, I don't want to look like I'm just starting out again.
My wife, who's not a particularly keen skier, watched a video I brought of the "new style of skiing" and she laughed, saying that the instructor looked like her, all over the place, all bent over with his legs 18 inches apart!
Ok rant over. I know you're all going to say I'm wrong, and that there's dynamic balance and all that stuff. But from what I can see, the good skiers who look good, look tight and neat and tidy and in control. I think the newer style of skiing is not so radically different from the old style, it's just that no one is aiming for the things we used to aim for. Perhaps more people just want to get down an off-piste section, whereas in the old days it was about doing something with style, making it look effortless and graceful as if you were floating in the environment not having a fight with it!
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johnnyh, Yes, I agree with most of what you say. I would say the stance thing has changed from 'a good skier skies with his boots nailed together' to 'it's best to ski with you feet in a comfortable stance'. Nailing them together was never a very good idea and only really helped when skiing deep stuff on skinnies ( which I have stopped doing now that I have discovered fat skis  )
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| Steilhang, fashion? They are skiing way better than 90% of the psoters on here will ever do, but for some reason they are 'doing it wrong'. I don't get it either. |
The guys in that video are clearly pretty decent skiers who no doubt could ski more effectively if they didn't have such a 'stylized' approach to their technique. They wouldn't ski like that if they wanted to ski fast (feet locked together inhibits getting your skis onto a decent edge) or steep (feet locked together reduces your base of support, therefore less balance). All their turns were skidded or steered to a huge extent, so they wouldn't take advantage of any development in ski shape in the last decade. If you wanted to teach skiers to reach a high level of competence and ski all over the mountain you wouldn't want them to aim for the kind of skiing the ESF guys demonstrated in that video (I speak from experience, unfortunately).
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| Steilhang wrote: |
| Yoda wrote: |
| Maybe when we see them "free skiing" we'll see the differences between the somewhat stylised "feet together banking" approach and a, shall we say, more "dynamic" style? |
Hmm. I don't see any banking! |
I see rather a lot! And weird things going on with the shoulders as they 'progress' from Evasion to GT parallel turns (whatever they are).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| johnnyh wrote: |
| A recent instructor said to me something like - if you have a "preconception or a self image of skiing neatly, and that's what you want to achieve then you wont be a good skier. You need to forget what you look like and be all dynamic and aggressive". |
Stick with that instructor, he or she clearly knows their onions 
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| Quote: |
feet locked together inhibits getting your skis onto a decent edge
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I agree - except if you look at the video their feet aren't locked/nailed/glued together. They are actually separate, but the angle of the slope and the position of the camera/viewer it appears that the feet are closer together than they really are. For sure, they could be further apart, but as I have said, they don't actually appear to be either off balance or unsupported by their feet. They do also look as though they are edging their skis - perhaps not pure carving but then these are straight skis. I think most people who think they are carving on today's skis aren't doing that either. Most people are really only using a (Snoworks terms) combination of twisty, pushy movements.
Is it not the case that for the terrain and for they level of skill, they are actually skiing well. As you say, if it was a knarly, steep track they would more than likely adjust their stance slighly. But surely it's a question of degrees based on your ability.
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FAQ
except in powder, using it long after shaped skis came out. In 1998 a CSIA L1 told me I skied like his grandfather. 
