 Poster: A snowHead
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I come from the school of old style skiing and I am struggling to conquer my A frame style of skiing. I would really welcome some suggestions of exercises I can use to help me conquer it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Just stop doing it.
Sorry, that has been said to me on a number of occasions by different instructors when I've diagnosed the problem myself and ask them how to fix it!
A couple of drills you might want to try:
(1) carry a small bungy cord with you and wrap it around your legs just above the knees. It should be loose enough to fall down if you let your knees drop in to each other. Focus on keeping tension in the bungy cord as you do some carved turns on a gentle piste.
(2) ski without poles and physically pull your inside knee into the turn with your inside hand.
For reasons I don't understand javelin turns (ski on your outside leg, lift your inside leg and cross the tips) seem to help with my general alignment, including reducing A-frame tendancies if my skiing is a bit sloppy.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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kevinrhead, You could also go and see CEM to make sure that you don't have alignment problems.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Try turning into the turn with your inside knee and one legged skiing on the outside edges.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Try skiing bow legged cowboy stylee.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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legs closer together and lift it
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| Quote: |
Try skiing bow legged cowboy stylee.
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the Sally Chapman idea of "skiing with a football between your thighs" is useful too. I find that if I try too hard to lead with the inside knee (to try to conquer my A-frame) I tend to push that inside foot too far forward - thus replacing one problem with another. In the recent lessons we had in Tignes the instructor was working quite hard on that - I found I had to consciously pull my inside foot back, to counteract the tendency I'd developed to push that inside knee forward, not just sideways. I can do it OK for a while - but the problem tends to creep back at the slightest opportunity!
easiski told us about the bungee idea but I've not had the nerve to try it; I have a vivid image in my mind of the thing falling down round my ankles and tripping me up. The drill without poles, pushing the inside knee, is less scary.
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pam w, you could do it with paper stuff so it breaks easily.... harder to keep up I think.... but no chance to trip yourself
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| pam w wrote: |
| easiski told us about the bungee idea but I've not had the nerve to try it; I have a vivid image in my mind of the thing falling down round my ankles and tripping me up. |
That's why it works so well 
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It's a pity some distance in the top of the legs is probably necessary to a certain degree. In the good ole 'grip with knees' days of horse riding the trick used to be to stick 50p coins under kids knees, if they were still there at the end of the lesson they got to keep them. You could almost imagine a similar notion with paper money between the thighs if skiing didn't require some degree of movement
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Three approaches : anatomical/ canting [ W Witherell]; behavioural [ active lower leg/ knee/ thigh separation, pointing/ turning inside knee before the new outside leg/ knee;and functional - what is happening at the boot/ ski surface interface to achieve simultanerous edge change and then balance edge angles].
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| rob@rar wrote: |
(2) ski without poles and physically pull your inside knee into the turn with your inside hand.
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I think that this is a Warren Smith technique (drill) as I read it recently in one of his articles in a magazine. It certainly helped me - it's surprising how little pressure/force you need to apply to see an effect
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You know it makes sense.
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Sleipnir, yes, I think Warren uses it (I'm sure he got me to do that the one time he taught me), but it is used pretty widely. veeeight, 's reminder of his Skiing Myths thread on A frames is worth reading through again. You do need to understand what you are trying to achieve when you try to get rid of (or ignore) an A frame.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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What rob@rar, said.
It might help to visualise that you have two lights fixed to your knees then try to keep the beams parallel. Video analysis would help too. Strengthen the outer thigh muscles which are used for driving the inner ski.
A week with Warren Smith will sort it.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Megamum, You should never grip with your knees when horse riding - maybe they used to (and still do) teach kids like this, but it would be very bad teaching. It's a sure fire way of getting yourself ejected from the seat. A good riding seat needs a strong core, good balance and a long leg. If you look at the legs of ladies who ride a lot, you'll see that we all have lean calf muscles - to the point of skinny.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Without seeing you ski, I have two suggestions.
If you come from an old style of skiing, I assume that you may be advancing the inner, or uphill, ski. Pulling this foot back may help as it's harder to A frame when you do this.
Secondly, ensure that you have a natural stance. If your feet are further apart than they would be naturally (perhaps wider than your hips) it will be difficult to ski with parrallel shins without putting excessive strain on your knees.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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What is A framing? Is it more or less the opposite of bow legs? I get the impression from what you guys are describing that it's pushing your outside knee inwards when turning, sort of a bit gay mincer-esque sticking one leg out to the side.
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el nombre, other leg - the outside ski and leg are straight and supporting weight like they should - possibly even edging and carving. The inside knee tucks in and lower leg turns out supporting some of the weight with the ski flat(ter) on the snow.
I did this when I first got onto shaped skis after a 10 year 'break' from skiing. I found at the end of the week that as I carved turns, i could feel my inside knee tucking in just below my outside knee. It felt realy good - sorta 'together' and tidy (I was teaching myself) but I seem to have just got out of that habit.
I now ski on one ski (usually the outside one) and can wave the other one about so the knee isnt tucked in there anymore, usually with my boots close together in the 'gay french 1970 styleee'.
As I open my stance up a bit, I have to concentrate on keeping my shins parallel - or pushing the inside knee into the turn a bit (like suggested above using various props). It does seem to work. Last season, with my knee in rehab I rented some realy short skis (140s, I normally like 175+) and bimbled about on piste - the wider stance wiht paralel shin concentration worked well. This season I will experiment with long skis & powder 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I thought kevinrhead, wanted somebody taken out ! 
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| Quote: |
And it has been mathematically proven that it is geometrically impossible to make turns with both perfectly parallel skis and shins.
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No it hasn't 
IIRC the discussion was that you cannot have in theory, parallel AND identical arcs!
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kevinrhead, somewhat depends on why you're A-framing and as stated above, not necessarily an evil that needs to be expunged from one's skiing, but...
Common reasons in old style skiers are:
1) too much counter-rotation pulling the inside knee in (towards the other knee)
2) the dreaded outside dog-leg from a conscious "knee-in" to gain outside ski big toe edge angle
Also for the less experienced:
1) too much rotation pulling the outside knee in (towards the other knee)
2) too much weight on inside ski
And for anyone really:
1) not getting a platform at initiation causes the outside ski to scrape out and weight to fall onto inside ski (similar to above but not quite the same)
2) not changing edges simultaneously
3) having a lazy inside leg or over-rotated outside one
Some possible solutions:
0) I don't know but suspect that for most people alignment correction isn't where the solution lies. Not a reason not to have it checked though.
1) Drills to stay squarer to the skis and more stacked.
2) Consciously and deliberately don't dog leg or "knee-in" the outside ski.
3) Drills to get early weight onto outside ski.
4) Feel for a good platform before extending at initiation - start turn progressively from lower joints up.
5) Consciously and deliberately change edges simultaneously.
6) Just stop doing it, like rob@rar said above - being conscious of it is the first step. Practise cowboy or 'O' frame skiing and keep feeling that you're pulling your inside knee to the inside of the turn. As you start to try to feel it, you'll become conscious of it and actually become able to feel it. Then eventually you'll be able to actively bring your knee across to the inside. Several zillion repetitions and one day, as if by magic, you'll wake up and it'll be gone.
Edited for clarity.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Thu 6-11-08 2:07; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| slikedges wrote: |
| 2) not changing edges simultaneously |
That was my problem, with my inside leg always lagging the edge change of the outside leg. Using a mental trigger of leading with my inside leg seemed to help a lot to make the edge changes simultaneous, and the A frame kind of disappeared.
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rob@rar, yes, leading with inside leg seems to work for many people. Not for me though, as I probably suffered from most of the problems on that list myself! I also quite like Warren Smith's dryland sartorius exercise (though I don't believe sartorius is the main activator for the movement!).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Ski on one of those:
Surface is like a carpet... and totally unforgiving, and if your edge changes are not right, you will suffer (where snow will forgive you)
Worked miracles for me...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Ronald, what's it called? I'd love to try it and was wondering whether there's a facility to do so in the London area.
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Hurtle, yes there is one somewhere. Ask Spyderman as I think he does some teaching on one.
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You know it makes sense.
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realliski in radlett and elsewhere in uk
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I attended a Warren Smith course recently at Milton Keynes and one of the drills was the "O" frame whereby you almost imagine an O shaped frame with your legs but of course it's not really an O because you always think you are exagerating your movements but in fact your legs only change shape slightly - ie millimetres. It also allows you to resist the pressure of the skis when they try to push you into the A frame. Hope that makes sense!
It certainly worked for me as by the end of the session I was bombing down more confidently that I ever have in 8 years of skiing. I also have his DVDs - Lesson 1 and Lesson 4 and the latter contains drills on the "O" stance.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Hurtle, I don't know in English i'm afraid... Perhaps 'revolving carpet ski simulator' but that does sound a tad silly to me...
Realliski's gallery shows a machine literally 5 times smaller (The thing in the picture is something like 7x9 meters)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Thanks, all.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
For reasons I don't understand javelin turns (ski on your outside leg, lift your inside leg and cross the tips) seem to help with my general alignment, including reducing A-frame tendancies if my skiing is a bit sloppy. |
A-framing can be a result of skiing too square with the hips, and rolling the outside knee inside to get the outside ski on edge. The javelin drill counters the hip and puts the outside ski on edge by pulling the hip into the turn. Makes it harder to knee angulate.
Did anyone suggest having alignment checked yet? If not,,, have your alignment checked. Bad alignment could leave you fighting a losing battle. A good boot fitter can do much to help. Time on snow should be spent learning the skills of the sport, not fighting bad equipment set-ups.
Oh, and Martin is right. Symmetry in the lower legs tip angles is a guideline that is often strayed a bit from in high level skiing.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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FastMan, thanks for that explanation, that makes a lot of sense.
Yes I have had my alignment checked (I now have 3 degree shims for both feet). I was quite sceptical about whether it would make a difference, but it is noticeable.
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