 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'd think that the alloy wheels could be considered to be an optional extra, the steel wheels would be the standard, so as you have been insured with the optional extras, then surely you must be due a £75 refund 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| JT wrote: |
| RobinS, I was told by a Lucern resident that I should have had winter tyres... I can't see why foriegners using those roads at those times would be exempt if it was law for the Swiss..... |
Not a legal requirement, it would seem
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Can't you just buy a cheap set of VW Alloys from Fleabay and fit a Winter set to them? No hassle with the Steel wheel question then.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Can't understand the insurance company though regarding the modification. I'm with Footman James, I've fitted a bigger engine, winch, enormous tyres, bucket seats, snorkel, lifted it, I told the insurance company, they said thank you very much, no extra charge.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I've have just popped through this thread with disbelief - it never even occurred to me that fitting winter tyres could invalidate an insurance - I take the point about the current issue being steel vs alloy, but all the same it's nuts. I have a spare set of skoda steel wheels fitted with my winter tyres of the correct size and rating for my Skoda Felicia (which comes with steel wheels) - as we all know this being a legal requirement before we can drive up a mountain on the continent in the winter. Is it the wheels or the tyres that are the issue here - if Boris were to just change the tyres on his existing alloy rims (and given that they are alloys I can see why he wouldn't want to for fear of damaging them), would the policy still be invalidated as they are not the tyres that the car left the factory with? It never even occured to me that I needed to tell the insurance company that the tyres had changed should I need to do so?
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| Megamum wrote: |
as we all know this being a legal requirement before we can drive up a mountain on the continent in the winter.
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Eh? Chains on summer tyres are perfectly acceptable and legal.
There is NO legal requirement anywhere in the EU for a UK registered vehicle to have winter tyres fitted.
Edit: Except in Finland
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sat 11-10-08 21:29; edited 2 times in total
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Megamum, fitting winter tyres on the existing wheels is fine - I've had that confirmed!
It's only chainging to steel wheels which seems to be the issue - Churchill are taking the stance that any modification leads to increased number of claims. They don't seem to understand that this is a sensible thing I want to do - they have put me in the same category as the 18 yr old who has fitted after-markey alloys, a spoiler, blue underlighting, chipped the engine and added a nitro injection 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Boredsurfing, looking at my earlier link Finland appears to have a mandatory requirement. But I am surprised Megamaum thinks the AA have got it wrong for the rest of Europe.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| achilles wrote: |
| Boredsurfing, looking at my earlier link Finland appears to have a mandatory requirement. But I am surprised Megamaum thinks the AA have got it wrong for the rest of Europe. |
What gives you the impression she does think that?
She never mentioned the AA.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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alex_heney, The fact remains with one exception winter tyres are not required in the EU.
The statement Mega made 'we all know this being a legal requirement before we can drive up a mountain on the continent in the winter'. is simply wrong.
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Boredsurfing, why is it however long you stay away from this place when you come back the same people are arguing and trying to be important 
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You know it makes sense.
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| Spyderman wrote: |
| Can't you just buy a cheap set of VW Alloys from Fleabay and fit a Winter set to them? No hassle with the Steel wheel question then. |
Not sure for Boris but for my Skoda, the manual says that I can't put snow chains on alloy wheels my car has but I must use steel wheels of the same size. I'm not sure why this is, the manual doesn't say. However I suspect that if Boris where to do something specifically advised against in the car's manual insurers would take a dim view.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Boredsurfing wrote: |
alex_heney, The fact remains with one exception winter tyres are not required in the EU.
The statement Mega made 'we all know this being a legal requirement before we can drive up a mountain on the continent in the winter'. is simply wrong. |
Agreed. Although based on this thread, among others, it is an easy mistake to make.
But there was no need whatsoever for Achilles to say anything more than what you have just said.
She made a mistake. We all make mistakes, but for some reason, certain people feel they have to ridicule certain others whenever they do.
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Poster: A snowHead
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peura, Chains can damage Alloys. I've had no problems with Weisenfells fitted on Alloys though, even with 45 series tyres.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The ex's new car had alloys, we had to pick carefully, but were able to get special chains to fit the special low profile wheels that it had - there were several options -I just spent some time on google finding them if that's any help to anyone.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| achilles wrote: |
| Boredsurfing, looking at my earlier link Finland appears to have a mandatory requirement. But I am surprised Megamaum thinks the AA have got it wrong for the rest of Europe. |
What gives you the impression she does think that?
She never mentioned the AA. |
Earlier posts:
| Quote: |
| JT wrote: |
| RobinS, I was told by a Lucern resident that I should have had winter tyres... I can't see why foriegners using those roads at those times would be exempt if it was law for the Swiss..... |
Not a legal requirement, it would seem |
| Megamum wrote: |
| I've have just popped through this thread with disbelief - it never even occurred to me that fitting winter tyres could invalidate an insurance - I take the point about the current issue being steel vs alloy, but all the same it's nuts. I have a spare set of skoda steel wheels fitted with my winter tyres of the correct size and rating for my Skoda Felicia (which comes with steel wheels) - as we all know this being a legal requirement before we can drive up a mountain on the continent in the winter. Is it the wheels or the tyres that are the issue here - if Boris were to just change the tyres on his existing alloy rims (and given that they are alloys I can see why he wouldn't want to for fear of damaging them), would the policy still be invalidated as they are not the tyres that the car left the factory with? It never even occured to me that I needed to tell the insurance company that the tyres had changed should I need to do so? |
I kinda assumed that Megamum had had the courtesy to read recent posts, which included mine which featured the AA link, and that she had therefore disregarded the AA advice.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Boredsurfing, actually, I think you'll find that you are wrong. It is a legal requirement to have winter tyres fitted if you want to drive on the autoroutes around Aosta between October 15 and April 15. Otherwise it's the slow roads for you...
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| peura wrote: |
| .......It may be a simple case of damage to the alloys (something that unless structural I really couldn't care less about). ....... |
It's quite hard to find something definitive on the web as to why alloy wheels with scratches and other damage should be replaced - it seems to be taken for granted. My guess is that damage causes stress concentration which if you are unlucky could lead to wheel failure. Here is one of the best articles that I have found (but it takes a while to load).
| Quote: |
| If you live in the snow belt and mount snow tires or use chains, buy a set of inexpensive wheels and mount separate tires for winter use. Store the alloys with their tires installed until spring. Mounting tires correctly on modern wheels, especially low profile ones, is critical. Improper tire installation can damage the wheel. This is an especially good idea if roads are salted. |
If, like me, you regard a car as a motorised wheelbarrow, it's best to get steel wheels in the first place. That said, for reasons which elude me, my ancient Corsa has alloy wheels, which luckily I have not curbed.
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David Murdoch, so you are saying the AA is wrong, even for UK-registered cars? If you can provide a reference, I'll drop the AA a note.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
I'll drop the AA a note
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That will be another club you'll have fallen out with then. 
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| Megamum wrote: |
Whether to a pedant I was wrong doesn't really matter, in essence the rest of you are quite happy to see that all I was getting at was the sense in going up a mountain with winter tyres is a good thing to do. BTW, I didn't mention the EU and I holiday in Switzerland on the 'continent which isn't in the EU anyway and my Swiss friends tell me that if I have an accident on the mountain without winter tyres on then my insurance won't pay up - apparently, according to my Swiss friends and nothing that I have double checked on the internet you are not allowed up a mountain in Switz in the winter without winter tyres. I see no reason to need to check that statement or double check it if told to me by Swiss nationals whether they are right or not I will be safe up the mountain.
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All of comments made by your Swiss friends are true for Swiss Nationals driving Swiss Registered cars, covered under Swiss Insurance Policies in Switzerland. I'm assuming that you are an UK resident, driving an UK Registered car, on UK Insurance. If you are, in this instance your UK insurer, requires that you follow their policy guidance on driving in Europe. If your car meets the standards set down by your insurer for use in the country in which it is registered, you will be insured to drive in Europe, as all car insurance sold in the UK meets minimum legal requirements for European use (EU+Switzerland, Lichtenstein).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Dypcdiver, snotta club, it's a business. In this case, if it is wrong, then it needs to know; if it is right, then we do.
PS - I am curious to know what Club I have 'fallen out' with. I am the hon treasurer of the only one I belong to. I was disappointed with the SCGB and its Fresh tracks Policy - and have accordingly left that - but I wouldn't say I have 'fallen out' with it. It didn't suit my needs any longer, so I left - but I wish it well, and remain on good terms with many members - including a member of the Council.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Sun 12-10-08 9:48; edited 2 times in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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achilles, I'm not saying anyone's wrong, just that there's a great big sign at the entrance to the autoroute quoting a (possibly local) law and mandating winter tyres between those dates. It doesn't offer such useful hints as "unless you're British" or "unless you're in the AA".
Aoste being semi-autonomous (officially, as opposed to the unofficial unilateral semi-autonomy of every other Italian) may have slipped the AA's notice.
snowbunny, yeah, all well and good. But if you have an accident and the usual counter claiming of insurance companies goes on and the Swiss national in his Swiss car with Swiss insurance's insurance companies simply states "it was your client's fault, we're paying nothing" then frankly, I'd be somewhat disappointed.
Likewise, if Monsieur le Gendarme says, "no, you can't drive up there without snow tyres or chains" (whether or not this is a legal requirement or not - as we know Monsieur, Signore or indeed Mister le Gendarme doesn't always enfore the strict letter of the law) and it's a powder day, I'd be right pissed off.
And worse, if I chose to drive in a snowy area in a snowy season and wrote off my cherished gas guzzler because my uber smart low profile sports wheels braking distance was between 3-6 times longer in alpine winter conditions than on a dry warm british motorway (although, the braking distance at average UK motorway speeds is only about 6 inches) I'd be slightly peeved.
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David Murdoch, thanks, I'll drop them a note. AA membership is irrelevant - it is merely the organization offering advice. I am thinking of driving out to the Alps this winter - I shall not be fitting winter tyres unless required to legally, since I found no problem whatsoever driving on conventional tyres in the past, including in temperatures down to -16°C (and perhaps colder) and over ice, slush, and snow - subject to using chains, of course. I suspect the vast majority of UK drivers will be doing the same this winter. It will be interesting to see if the locals have stockpiles of winter tyres, for silly British, waiting at the edges of Alpine regions.
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You know it makes sense.
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I take it if there's a crash between a local with winter tyres and a Brit without in winter conditions then the Brit with automatically be at fault, have to pay his/her excess and possibly lose a no claims bonus etc.
It's not so black and white as the AA makes out although they do say
| Quote: |
Road conditions in winter in many resorts will be much more severe than anything encountered in the UK - we only recommend driving in extreme winter conditions if the driver is confident and the vehicle suitably equipped.
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According to current Austrian law the police have the power to stop vehicles (including foreign vehicles) that are not suitably equipped for the conditons. Non-winter tyres and chains are not suitable for driving in slushly conditions as the chains would damage the road and non-winter tyres tend to be a nightmare in these conditions. This new power has been introduced so that people who aren't properly equipped don't hold up the others or cause them to be stranded.
Even if winter tyres weren't a legal requirement I wouldn't drive through the alps in winter with a tyre that doesn't have a mountain/snowflake symbol. It's not a legal requirement to go skiing off piste without safety equipment but that doesn't make it right to do so.
Is there anyone here who has been through a real alpine winter storm but would run summer tyres during the winter in the alps?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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peura, The Skoda Steels might be of a slightly different offset to the Alloys. I've fitted Weissenfells Clack'n'Go low profile chains to my Octavia on the factory alloys 205/55R16, with no problems at all, but they are low profile chains. Clearance might be an issue against the suspension strut with standard chains though.
I also fitted Weissenfells to my Vel Satis with 245/45R18 on Alloys, the manual said it wasn't possible due to clearance, they worked fine had them on for 2 weeks solid, no scratches, no damage to bodywork or suspension.
I think the manufacturers base their advise on cheapo chains that fly all over the place. Buy a decent set of quality low profile chains and they'll be no problem. There's always Spikes Spider for when there really isn't any room on the inside of the rim.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| DB wrote: |
| I take it if there's a crash between a local with winter tyres and a Brit without in winter conditions then the Brit with automatically be at fault, have to pay his/her excess and possibly lose a no claims bonus etc. |
That's your take, but not mine, since I think the UK insurance companies would presumably require drivers to have winter tyres fitted to their vehicles were you correct.
| Quote: |
| Is there anyone here who has been through a real alpine winter storm but would run summer tyres during the winter in the alps? |
I have had to wait at Brides les Bains because the road form Moutier to Tignes/ ValD'Isere was closed by snow. When I did eventually get through, my normal tyre/chain combination was no problem. During the following week, I had to move the car every day for a week so that snowploughs could do their job. The next week was relatively clear, even so, when leaving, I had to dig my car out. It was a right pain, but no problem as far as driving was concerned.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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achilles, your choice. I was mightily amused however to watch my chum in his very very smart Range Rover Sport and M&S tyres having trouble getting up a gentle gradient at Easter in 20cms of snow while we in our humble Nissan with snow tyres behaved as though it was dry tarmac.
I also have had excessively lengthy periods of my precious time wasted because some donkey hasn't got snow tyres and is having trouble on a steep incline in 2-3cms of wet snow on an icy base. Well done the Austrians.
Oh and by the way, you will find that there are indeed stockpiles of winter tyres at alpine outskirts for exactly that situation.
I don't understand the issue. It snows out here. Really quite a lot. Really quite often. Normal road tyres don't work properly if at all. Work it out for yourself. It's not about not getting up the hill to go skiing. It's about stopping before you kill yourself or someone else.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Have sent the following to the AA:
On your site, under Motoring Advice, 'Chains and Winter Tyres Requirements in the main winter resorts' you advise winter tyres are not mandatory in the EU, except in Finland. A friend advises that a large sign requires winter tyres to be fitted if you want to drive on the autoroutes around Aosta between October 15 and April 15. I suggest you check your web page advice, and amend it if my friend's advice is correct.
I'll post the outcome, if any, here.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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achilles, I don't know whether or not the reason the manual says what is does is due to the possibility of damage to the alloys. If I had any tyre size other than the two they mention as far as I can see there is nothing to stop me putting snowchains on alloys. So my (current) assumption is that there must be something about the design of the larger alloys that means there is an increased chance of damage to the car itself. Quite how I've no idea. Alternatively, they are worried about what you say but the smaller alloys have a sufficiently high-profile that the chains can't damage the alloy.
Anyway, as I said above I have no problem with getting and using steel rims (other than actually locating some, which I'm working on  ). For some odd reason Boris (or rather the Boris' insurer) has. My other two options involve either convincing the insurer that the manual is wrong to prohibit the use of chains on larger alloys or changing down to tyre size (using either steel or alloy rim) and checking this is ok with Skoda (which is it may be). I'm clear what I'm going to, I just don't know how to help Boris other than to suggest a change of insurer.
I can't see it as a garage saw a sales opportunity to sell me 4x steel rims because he didn't mention that they sold them but did tell me he know of people who have got them on a well known auction site.
----
I do have reservations about whether or not the AA has updated it's list since the laws in Austria where changed. It would be nice if there was a date.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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David Murdoch, know exactly what you mean.... winter tyres transform most vehicles. If you do the trip often then you'll buy proper tyres and rims just like you'd buy a roof box.
Alloys for summer posing, steels for pot holes etc ..anyone who has driving on our raods knows that. Many a time I have damaged tyres and rims that way. Low profiles, alloys and our roads are a poor mix. And you try getting a single (not copies ) alloy unless from the main dealer.
Do it properly if you are driving often..get new rims and tyres. Insurance companies guidelines are another thing, you just should start off being safe.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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David Murdoch, on 20 cm of snow I would have fitted chains. Why didn't your chum?
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| Spyderman wrote: |
peura, The Skoda Steels might be of a slightly different offset to the Alloys. I've fitted Weissenfells Clack'n'Go low profile chains to my Octavia on the factory alloys 205/55R16, with no problems at all, but they are low profile chains. Clearance might be an issue against the suspension strut with standard chains though.
I also fitted Weissenfells to my Vel Satis with 245/45R18 on Alloys, the manual said it wasn't possible due to clearance, they worked fine had them on for 2 weeks solid, no scratches, no damage to bodywork or suspension.
I think the manufacturers base their advise on cheapo chains that fly all over the place. Buy a decent set of quality low profile chains and they'll be no problem. There's always Spikes Spider for when there really isn't any room on the inside of the rim. |
Thanks Spyerman but since I need new rims (for a second set of tyres) anyway I thought (partly) I'd go with what will be the cheapest. The garage didn't mention any problem with offsets wrt steel vs alloys and indeed my spare is a full size steel. I'm not worried about damage to rims, other than structural since the car is just a (waterproof, comfortable) motorised wheelbarrow but I would have thought that doing something that the manual says should not be done could lead to problems in the event of a claim. My insurer said that "as long as they could ring up Skoda and confirm that the change was acceptable they were happy". If I made a claim and they rang up Skoda who said "no it says here on page 147 of the manual that was supplied with the car that snow chains should not be used with 205/55R16 alloys" I imagine they would be unhappy. So I'm loath to take a chance like that.
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Spyderman, The ex also had a Skoda Octavia with factory fitted alloys - this is the car that we got the low wheel profile chains for. We also fitted special low profile winter tyres as recommended for the vehicle onto the alloy wheels and drove it to Switzerland on that combination this year. If anyone is interested in which ones they were I can go and look as they are still in my barn.
My Swiss friends have also mentioned the signs that say you need winter tyres between certain dates at the beginning of mountain roads there
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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achilles, he he he, thanks. Will be interesting to see outcome! My suspicion is that the bylaw quoted applies only to that autoroute and was inserted during the authorisation process to build it (it being tolled and presumably some sort of at-least-partially-private venture). We'll probably be over there in the next few weeks and I'll try and get a picture of the sign in question.
re our chum: Yeah, it was one of those "I have a very smart 4x4 so I don't need to fit chains" moments.
Oddly enough, you can't get (or at least, in France not easily) chains for our car. Even more oddly, the Swiss manual says only to fit them to the rear wheel whereas the English language one says only fit to the front. Confused? I am...
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I went and looked anyway the tyres have the following information literally printed into the rubber - I guess if you are into tyres you will know what it means:
Avon Silica M&S
205/55R16
Mount only on 16"rim
91H
These fitted a 2007 Skoda Octavia Estate with Alloy wheels
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FAQ
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