 Poster: A snowHead
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Well the reply has arrived - failed to answer a single point in my view - my original email below
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Dear Mr Boris 
Thank you for your recent e-mail.
I have reviewed your policy details and can confirm the information given over the telephone, is correct. The steel wheels increase your compulsory excess from £50.00 to £300.00 and your premium by £75.55 for the remainder of the year.
Should you require any further help, please e-mail us or alternatively call the relevant telephone number below.
Yours sincerely
NAME Removed
Customer Service Assistant
Business Support
web: www.churchill.com
email: car.customer.service@churchill.com
car telephone no: 08456 033 550
fax number: 020 8313 5361
opening hours: 8am-9pm Monday to Friday
9am-5pm Saturday and Sunday
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Dear Sir/Madam
I would be grateful if you could provide clarification with regard to replacement wheels. On a recent phone call to you, I don't think I made my enquiry clear and the answer I was provided with seemed somewhat confusing.
What I would like to do, is to swap the existing wheels on our car with a set of steel wheels. These wheels would be genuine VW parts supplied by a VW dealer. I intend to use these wheels with Winter Tyres during the winter months.
I was informed that this would mean an increased premium of £75 per annum and an increase in the excess. When I queried what this was for, I understood the answer to be along the lines of "to cover the increased market value of the vehicle".
This would seem somewhat extreme, given the total cost of 4-wheels is £228. Surely the same does not apply when fitting new tyres, which in total cost over £400.
Winter Tyres have been shown to provide better performance during winter months, to the extent they are mandatory in many European countries. With steel wheels being, in my view, far less desirable than alloys, I would argue I am taking positive steps to reduce my risk of accident and/or theft. Hence the suggestion that my premium should increase is somewhat puzzling?
If this is indeed the case then I shall abandon the idea.
I assume that simply fitting Winter Tyres to my existing wheels is not something you need to be notified of? I would be grateful if you could confirm this.
Regards
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| snowbunny wrote: |
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stortfordhal
down a crevasse
Posts: 64
Location: London
Got this back from the Austrain Tourist board. So looks like All Weather Snow and Mud tyres OK they are saying as well as winter tyres!!! So does DB, agree with that or are the Tourist Board out of date? Smile
Dear Sir,
Thank you very much for your inquiry.
The information you received is correct: Since last year winter tyres are compulsory during the winter season. Snow chains are only accepted as an alternative if the entire road is heavily covered with snow.
Another alternative are all-seasons-tyres marked with SM (snow and mud).
If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us again.
Best regards,
Gregor Krassnig
Holiday Service of the Austrian National Tourist Office
PO Box 83
A-1043 Vienna
E-Mail: holiday@austria.info
Internet: www.austria.info
ZVR: 075857630
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Taken from the last thread to engage on this issue. Still it's good to see that DB is firmly sticking to his POV about M&S rated tyres only being legal if they have the snowflake symbol. Still DB has declared that he's not being paid by the Austrian authorities, so unless Mr Krassnig is a hoaxer, who's view would you take? |
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=40797&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=snowflake+symbol&start=0
I think you will find that I said M&S tyres are only legal with enough tread and according to an article from the ÖAMTC (Austrian AA equivalent) that I linked too not all M&S tyres are proper winter tyres. According to the ADAC (German AA Equivalent) some summer tyres from cheaper tyre manufacturers (often found on SUV's) have M&S markings on them. I tend to believe the motoring organisations on motoring matters rather than the bloke in the tourist office.
To be a bit clearer you might get away with driving them in Austria but if somebody in front of you brakes hard in winter conditions you are likely to run into them. I doubt the guy in the tourist office will compensate you for this.
What I said was to be sure you get tyres that are up to the job and legal in Austrian it's better to go for one with the mountain/snowflake symbol (either a winter tyre or an all season tyre with this marking). The cost difference between these and a normal all season tyre is small.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Wed 1-10-08 11:12; edited 2 times in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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DB,
I'll have to have a look at my Vredestein snowtracs as I've never noticed the snowflake in a mountain symbol, though they do have a large snowflake on them. The quatracs didn't seem to have any obvious symbol on them, but again I didn't look carefully.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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It's all too complicated I'm going to use UK normal tyres and carry chains this winter. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Ouch.
Gonna have to have the Winter tyres fitted on to existing rims then (if swapping them twice costs more than 75GBP I'd complain).
Then find a new insurance company.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Boredsurfing, well having done that for 20+ trips - I'm kind of inclined to do that. But I can see the point of Winter Tyres and was just trying to make a little easier for myself 
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Then find a new insurance company.
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That, as the saying goes, is a given
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| Boredsurfing wrote: |
| It's all too complicated I'm going to use UK normal tyres and carry chains this winter. |
You will probably be OK with those in France esp La Ros but according to the Austrian law when it's slushy you would be required to stop (summer tyres not up to the conditions and chains would damage the road so aren't allowed).
Simply go for a tyre with the mountain and snowflake symbol for a few quid more to be sure of better winter performance and no legal / insurance issues. Yes the best solution is a set of winter tyres and a set of summer tyres but the new all season tyres with the mountain/snowflake symbol are a good compromise for those who don't want two sets of tyres.
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Have you told Churchill of your disquiet (and that of your fellow snowheads) on their seemingly inexplicable stance, which is gong to cost them customers and goodwilll ?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Boris, look on the bright side. When you crash and write the car off on its inappropriate summer tyres and huuuugely expensive steel wheels the insurance company will have to give you a bigger cheque because of the increased value and you'll have a shiny set of alloys to sell as well.
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My plan was to get a set of all seasons with the aforementioned symbol. Not sure how to find a brand that will definitely have that? Will speak to my local friendly Kiwi car mechanic who gets my car past its TüV every 2yrs. And in my case if I fit to existing wheels the Insurance co. can do nothing, since I'm not materially changing the spec, but am doing it to comply with local legislation.
Fortunately 205/55R16 is becoming more popular, so hopefully can get a reasonable set that's also autobahn compatible (like rated for 190kph+).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Boris, put a complaint in that they have failed to address your queries! You have merely been sent a standard response confirming the changes in cover not clarifying the reason behind the changes!
I do not know how Churchill themselves rate their car insurance but i have never understood the value of a vehicle to be a major rating factor only when you get over £30k really. What i expect has happened is a basic insurance administrator has noted on your policy that you are replacing the wheels and the standard deamon tweeks style endorsement has been generated. Escalate your query to someone who has a basic understanding of insurance and can look at your query in its entirity.
As for changing insurer, thought about going through a broker . . . they would deal with this sort of annoyance on your behalf
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| andy wrote: |
| Fortunately 205/55R16 is becoming more popular, so hopefully can get a reasonable set that's also autobahn compatible (like rated for 190kph+). |
Yes winter tyres are rated to go above that ......
http://www.blackcircles.com/general/speedrating
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snobunni, response has been sent - If I get a duff reply (which I suspect I will) then I will be asking for Name and contact details to make a complaint
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but the new all season tyres with the mountain/snowflake symbol are a good compromise for those who don't want two sets of tyres.
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I'm intrigued now - any examples?
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Boris wrote: |
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but the new all season tyres with the mountain/snowflake symbol are a good compromise for those who don't want two sets of tyres.
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I'm intrigued now - any examples? |
I know that the
Goodyear Vector 4Seasons
Hankook Optimo 4S
Vredestein Quatrac 3 91 H
Dunlop SP 4 All Seasons
all have the M&S plus snowflake symbol and suspect the rest in this list do too. (If anybody can confirm / disprove this then please post)
http://www.autobild.de/artikel/test-ganzjahresreifen-195_65-r15_786047.html
1st - Goodyear Vector 4Seasons 91 V.
2nd - Hankook Optimo 4S 91 H.
3rd - Kumho Solus Vier KH 21 95 V.
3rd - Vredestein Quatrac 3 91 H
5th - Barum Quartaris 91 T
5th - Dunlop SP 4 All Seasons 91 H
7th - Pirelli P 2500 Euro 4S 91 H.
8th - Maxxis All Season 95 H
In reaction to recent law changes in Germany tyre manufacturers are improving the winter performance of "all season tyres" and adding the snowflake symbol.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Wed 1-10-08 12:17; edited 2 times in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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.....crazy...you try and make your vehicle safer..and reduce the likelyhood of an accident and they want to charge you for it. Obviously talking to the monkey as others have said.
IME, there is just no comparisson between the perfromance of a winter tyre and a standard tyre on snow.... not even close.. which is presumably why some alpine countries insist on them at times. Lucerne at 450mtrs, IIRC...require all cars to have winter tryes from Oct onwards...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Boris wrote: |
snobunni, response has been sent - If I get a duff reply (which I suspect I will) then I will be asking for Name and contact details to make a complaint
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but the new all season tyres with the mountain/snowflake symbol are a good compromise for those who don't want two sets of tyres.
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I'm intrigued now - any examples? |
My X trail came fitted with M+S mountain symbol tyres as standard. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Boris,
Interesting that they say that just because it is a legal requirement for locals to have winter tyres, that does not apply to foreign visitors. They quote winter tyres as being recommended, but not mandatory for both Austria and Germany! As I am anticipating several trips this winter I have my winter tyres on order, but the legal situation does seem to be very confused.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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DB, The German pimp mobile came with summer tyres 
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RobinS, I was told by a Lucern resident that I should have had winter tyres... I can't see why foriegners using those roads at those times would be exempt if it was law for the Swiss.
yes..clear as mud..
Just as well we use a 4x4 with winter tyres anyway
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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JT,
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RobinS, I was told by a Lucern resident that I should have had winter tyres... I can't see why foriegners using those roads at those times would be exempt if it was law for the Swiss.
yes..clear as mud..
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The AA guidance quotes the Uk Department for Transport - "The UK Department for Transport have confirmed that International conventions permit vehicles to circulate in international traffic as long as they satisfy general technical requirements which as far as tyres are concerned mean only "pneumatic tyres ensuring good adhesion, even in the wet".
So as far as the law is concerned your normal tyres that meet UK regulations will be OK for a winter trip to Germany though you must take measures to ensure that you can make normal progress in inclement conditions.
In practice this means carrying snow chains and using them whenever conditions or local signs require. "
This relates specifically to Germany but the principle is general - our vehicles conform to our laws - they do not need to conform to the laws of countries they are visiting. There are lots of vehicles on the roads in the UK that are illegal in other countries 9and probably vice-versa), but you are still allowed to visit - as an example, I had a Mazda Bongo with the only rear passenger door on the nearside (in the UK) - that is illegal in most european countries as the door is then on the offside, but you can still visit those countries!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| JT wrote: |
RobinS, I was told by a Lucern resident that I should have had winter tyres... I can't see why foriegners using those roads at those times would be exempt if it was law for the Swiss.
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In general, reciprocal arrangements between European countries (not just EU) mean that if a vehicle meets Construction & Use regulations in its country of registration, then it will be permitted to be used on the roads of all countries, even if it would not meet the regulations for the country it is being used in temporarily.
There are exceptions for things such as long term imports, but that is the general rule if you are just driving your UK vehicle while on holiday abroad.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Boris, I don't think I mentioned in my previous post that my car is from the VW family (Skoda) so I'd have thought that there is no reason for VW in the UK to not like steel rims if Skoda are happy. I hope you've got this sorted somehow by now though.
Just catching up and noticed this. Thanks DB, I'll have a look later.
| Spyderman wrote: |
DB, snowbunny, With or without the M+S and Snowflake logo, I'd consider 'All Season Tyres' to be inferior to a pure 'Summer' Tyre in Summer and a pure 'Winter' Tyre in Winter.
An analogy is in F1, Dry grooved 'slicks' for a dry track, Intermediates for damp track and Monsoon Wets for heavy rain. If the rain is heavy both the slicks and inters will be falling off the track. If it's dry the wets will overheat and degrade. In the dry the Inters wont be as fast as slicks, in the wet they wont clear as much water as wets. Fit the right tyres for the conditions. 'All Season' are a compromise. |
Inferior in what sense? We can't use the best option for a pure winter tyre here because the studs would damage the road too much  . Tyres in the next best category* (soft "Nordic" tyres) wouldn't be the best for winter here either because they trade off grip in the wet for grip on snow (when for most of the winter I'm likely to see rain not snow). I'd say the best winter tyres for most of us are either "Central European" (harder) winter tyres or all seasons that have been proven (by passing the "snowflake test") to improve winter grip. Remember that all the M+S marking means is that is has a certain ratio of block to void whereas the snowflake/mountain symbol (as I understand it) requires that a tyre is tested and shown to increase winter grip to a "sufficient" level. "Nordic" tyres may also not be the best for a drive to the Alps when you consider how much poorer their braking performance can be in the wet at "motorway speeds", yes they'd be better for the last few miles but not so good for most of the journey.
* I've categorised winter tyres thus (included new category)
- Studded tyres e.g. Michelin X-Ice North, Nokian Hakkapeliitta 5, Vredestein Icetrac.
- Soft/"Nordic" snow tyres e.g. Michelin X-Ice, Nokian Rsi, Vredestein Nord-Trac.
- Hard/"Central Europe" winter tyres Michelin Alpin A2, Nokian WR, Vredestein Snowtrac 2.
- M&S "all season" tyres with snowflake/mountain symbol e.g. Vredestein Quatrac 3, and others from DB's list above.
- M&S "all season" tyres without snowflake/mountain symbol e.g. ?
- Summer tyres e.g. Michelin Energy Saver, Nokian H, Vredestein T-TRAC Si.
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Boris, when I had problems with my insurance company I notified them of my intention to take my problem to the insurance ombudsman unless I had a more reasonable reply. I got one. I think all insurance companies have to have a specific and transparent complaints procedure. So perhaps the first step is to write and ask them what this procedure is, expressing your intention of using this first, before going to the Ombudsman.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Spyderman, Oi, you know it does do mud, you have seen the roads around here
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Poster: A snowHead
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Boredsurfing, I know, most of the mud on the roads near you fell of my Landy. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Incidentally - 10 days after my last email to them, they reamin very quiet. Although I did have an automated email to tell me they would respond within 2-working days
peura, VW are fine with the wheels - its that stupid dog
I suspect I am just going to buy All Season tyres and give up on the spare wheels idea
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Spyderman wrote: |
My last trip to the Alps had 200 miles of snow on the Autoroute, too much snow for Summer Tyres, but not enough for chains. Cars on Summer Tyres were all over the place. I had brand new Winter Tyres, no problems whatsoever. |
Isn't it illegal to use chains on an autoroute or am I making that up??
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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marcellus,
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Isn't it illegal to use chains on an autoroute or am I making that up??
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The autoroute from Albertville onwards up the tarentaise has 'Chainage areas', so yep you making it up
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I use Nokian M+S tyres on a 4x4 Passatt and have had no problems in various conditions and have not had to put chains on in 4 seasons.
I am with Churchill and there is a condition about modifying wheels and I was told by an assessor that they are strict about it. I cant see anything about tyres.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Boredsurfing wrote: |
marcellus,
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Isn't it illegal to use chains on an autoroute or am I making that up??
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The autoroute from Albertville onwards up the tarentaise has 'Chainage areas', so yep you making it up |
There isn't an Autoroute from Albertville to the Tarentaise, I presume you are thinking of the N90. I think there is an Aire de Chainage at Passy where the N205 turns into the A40.
This doesn't really answer the question though.
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Man i hate insurance companys,
oh i wait work for one,
The Trained monkey on the end of the phone, has taken the fact you are changing the standard wheels (alloys in your case) this is therfore modifying the car, whether they are cheaper or not you are still changing the car from standard factory issue.
How ever the question to ask the Monkeys manager, when you do get that far or may have gone past it.
i get a puncture and put the spare on, this is a steel wheel so would i then not be covered ?????
let us know how this progeress,
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I imagine that if conditions are bad enough, you'd have to use chains on an autoroute. I recall one occasion, when I drove off the autoroute into a rest area, as the conditions were getting very hairy. There were HGVs, who had done the same thing, skidded all over the very slight inclines up into their parking areas. We sat there for a few hours - and I felt that we only just made it, manoevring round the lorries. But I suspect that when things get so bad that cars would need chains they close the autoroute - and I have certainly heard reports on the 107.7FM autoroute radio about prohibition on HGVs using the roads, and being "stacked" in parking areas, sometimes for quite a while.
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Dear Mr Boris
Thank you for your recent e-mail.
Any change from the manufacturers standard specification including optional extras,is considered to be a modification. and as such claim history shows that vehicles that have been modified are involved in more claims thus the increase in premium.
Should you require any further help, please e-mail us or alternatively call the relevant telephone number below.
Yours sincerely
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Sigh
They STILL haven't answered the question about whether simply changing to Winter Tyres changes the premium
Me thinks Mr Churchill will be hearing a big Ohhh NO when they ask me to renew the Boris cars this year
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FAQ
must have missed that part. In that case I think I'd be find out how fast they respond when you say you wish to cancel your insurance as you change providers 