 Poster: A snowHead
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Been fitted three times now and each bootfitter used a different set of "tools" and methods when fitting my boots and making footbeds. I am wondering if it matters to the final fit or is it just a case that they use what they are used to or trained on.
What are the best current methods?
Do some shops use outdated tools, machines and methods?
Are some gadgets just for show and dont really help?
Can a good bootfitter use any tools or method to get great results?
For example:
Footbeds - most places have the soft pad you stand on which moulds to your feet and the footbed is placed into the mould, they then seem to glue bits to the back of the bed and grind away material.
another option i had was to sit in a chair with my feet dangling and heated beds put inside some plastic bags and vacuum moulded to my feet, as they cooled i stood on them to mould the toes correctly.
Pressure pads - one place had me stand on a computerised pressure sensor that showed the weight distribution between feet and how "high" my arch was. after beds were made was then retested
Alignment - some use rulers and calipers, others video analysis, some by eye, some even laser beams...
i could go on but curious what others think.....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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hands and eyes, I've said this before but it is about round pegs in round holes and square pegs in square holes,
ski boot stretching /grinding tools haven't relly changed over the years, sure soemone comes along with a new tool and if it works shops will buy into it. when it comes to footbeds it is case of skills first and toys second, some of it comes down to what the fitter is used to, what they are trained more in and their biomechanical beliefs. for example i prefer working with the non weight bearing superfeet inserts as i know that gravity will not distort the shape i am trying to capture, i also have access to a conformable system and use it in either semi weightbearing or full weight bearing for various clients, the most obvious is soemoen with a very high arched rigid foot, but care must be taken not to invert the foot when the ground reaction force form the pad pushes up under the first ray, this creates a false position...sure it will give you a killer feel on the inside edge, but it can also damge the foot if that shape was not the true but an acquired shape!
as for pressure pads they show the client a pretty picture on the screen and prehaps for some peopel reasure them that whatever inserts have been made are doing what was desired, i have no problem with them for analysis [other than the initial outlay!!] but there are a few systems out there [like the one on dragons den] where they use the 2 dimensional data from the pressure pad to create a 3 dimensional orthotic device
Fact a pressure mat cannot tell how high your arch is...what it can tell you is where the pressure distribution is on the foot and what is not in contact with the floor
must go client here, more to follow
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm pleased you haven't asked this question on epic. It's not that they are different techniques due to developments or boot fitting "fads". This is just two techniques that are still quite common, weighted Vs unweighted. As you've had both done which did you find best?
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parlor, why not Epic would i get run out of town there or has it been done to death ? 
I am wondering if the old stand on the machine jobbies have been superceded by CEM's method or is it just horses for courses.. Could very well be that either works well but they are so different i was just curious...
The first footbed i had moulded was sh**t, done by a small local shop that has been around for a long time i think the boots were way too big, The second by Profeet along with new boots that actually fit and was very happy with it but after 25 weeks or so i think it was getting a bit worn out. The bed was a glued together jobbie and didnt seem that substantial. The last ones done by CEM are cork ones and they feel great so far in the fridge but havent had a proper run in yet. They seem more substantial and CEM assures me they can go into new liners as and when.
I am sure it is mainly down to experience and training but am wondering if some methods used by the high street guys are just plain wrong and if you see them doing something should warning flags go up.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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the superfeet vacuum moulding system was first developed in 1974, it hasn't changed since...biomechanics is biomechanics... the stand on machines in most ski shops are there because conformable got to the Uk market early, they are fine if the guy making the product knows what he is doing ....finding the guy who knows what he is doing is the tricky bit
on the last boot day at lockwoods for example... i made a pair of superfeet for a clinet that SZK was dealing with, likewise he made a pair of conformable for a client i was working with...WHY??? because he builds more comformable than me and i build more superfeet than him, so we can offer the best service with the best product to suit the needs of the customer
the think with any of these syatems is repeatbility, can the fitter reproduce the perfect copy of the footbed you had made by them last year which you loved, personally i think repeatabilty is a little easier with the non weight bearing system as gravity is not interfering, there are other fitters would argue differently
one think i would say though is if you are paying for a custom footbed just make sure it actually is a custom footbed made to your foot and not some computer generated image of something LIKE your foot
alignment techniques are really interesting, what Andi does at my place is more balance than alignment, it is finding the bodies natural balance/alignment point and then intergrating that into the bottom of the boot thus unterfacing the boot to the skier, sole palning/binding wedging is dealing with a different relationship altogether so it is approached in many differnet ways
next client here so bye
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CEM,
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alignment techniques are really interesting,
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what alignment/balance techniques do you think are appropriate... i am still a bit puzzled by lots of this stuff. for instance as why/when wedges should go inside the boot or on the outside by planing the sole..
I fianlly found a copy of the "Athletic Skier" as you recommended and it is really interesting but it hasnt sunk in yet.
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CEM, Not sure i'd need to ask for help with cork footbeds, making 10 pairs a week for the last 9 winters has kept my eye in. 
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| skimottaret wrote: |
CEM,
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alignment techniques are really interesting,
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what alignment/balance techniques do you think are appropriate... i am still a bit puzzled by lots of this stuff. for instance as why/when wedges should go inside the boot or on the outside by planing the sole... |
Same job by differing method isn't it?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I've had both Comformable 'stand on' and Superfeet 'vacuum' full cork Footbeds, both made by CEM. The Comformable ones were in an attempt to give me more volume in the boot, as they're thinner than the Superfeet full cork. I find the Superfeet much more supportive and comfortable than the Conformable. I stuck with the Full Cork after trying both. CEM managed to grind some of the thickness out of the cork and Baseboard, to give a solution to the volume requirement.
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I've got stand on footbeds made by Hamish at Profeet which CEM said were spot on & perfectly usable in the new boots he fitted for me however I still went with a new pair of vacuum footbeds from CEM. In comparison they are identical however the vacuum method has given much more 'definition' in the peaks & troughs etc. Deb also had stand on's made by another fitter at Profeet & on examination by CEM they were waaay out for her - something about far too much varus posting IIRC. Her new vacuum footbeds have made a great improvement to both her skiing & comfort. So it seems it's down to the skill of the fitter but my experience is that the vacuum method gives more definition. And because the foot is unweighted I reckon the outcome must be less influenced by the fitter or the patient?
I've also had alignment work done by both the sole grinding method (Bud Heishman in the US using calipers etc) & the internal canting method (CEM/Andi McCann in the UK using Andi's Neutralizer balance analysis system) & both methods calculated the exact same amount of adjustment. The benefits of the internal canting is that it's a non permanent solution which allows for future adjustment. The dowside is that the wedge takes up a bit of volume so mine required a bit of fettling to give my toes a tad more height but the wedges probably wouldn't fit into Spyerman's boots at all. The problem in the UK is that most skiers aren't aware of the benefits of alignment work & that there's only CEM/Andi doing it.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Mosha Marc, could be but im not sure. For instance heel lifts on the inside of the boot do something completely different to raising the boot from the outside.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| Mosha Marc, could be but im not sure. For instance heel lifts on the inside of the boot do something completely different to raising the boot from the outside. |
skimottaret, I agree with Marc re same solution by differing methods. I'd say that heel lifts are part of the boot fitting process rather than alignment work as you can have heel lifts combined with either internal alignment wedges or ground soles.
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spyderjon, Mosha Marc, your probably right but i find this topic intriguing as some seem to place such huge importance in it and yet the only info seems to be decades old. Yes biomechanics hasnt changed much but equipment certainly has and you would think there would be more info about...
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You know it makes sense.
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Balancing is so much more constructive than many simple principals. Without which, lessons and general bootfittting are worthless. If your Bootfitter 'Poo-Poo's them then they are either 'OLD SCHOOL' or Stupid. Balence = 70% of difficulties. Warren Winger and all his groupies included. I will stop the tide, he said, King Kanoute. What a PRICKly person. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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So KINGBOOTFITTER glad you have joined the party, what drops of your knowledgable nectar will you rain on the great uneducated 
Seriously, do you have any info that is less than 10 years old that you can add to the mix? I still remain unconvinced that for most intermediate even English Advanced skiers balancing will instantly cure their woes and make them better skiers... Seems to me more a case of fine tuning but i have an open mind...
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'm 100% behind balancing. Better late than never. Am I going to explain it here? No way. However, will laugh my A$$ off while you guys try and work it out? Hell Yeah. Am i welcome to your party? Maybe not. Is my work ten years old? Not unless the future is the past, i know already what you guys will be wearing in 2012. Goodnight Smurf-heads. That brick wall is deeper than hard pack. Keep smiling and remember............... Too cool for school? No, Geeks Rule.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I wrote that, ^^^^Ace.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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skimottaret, Party? Do you know what a PARTY is? Yep, it's what we do while you are making a DICKionary of Terms that don't exist. Ski free and play with Nature. XXX
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Who hoo. That's telling 'em. "Bit Drunk Me." That said, where are my B2's ....................(mooning)
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| I'm 100% behind balancing. Better late than never. |
Hell yeah. I remember the early days of SZK when I was talking of balancing and alignment
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skimottaret,
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| Yes biomechanics hasnt changed much but equipment certainly has and you would think there would be more info about... |
I don't really think that Boots have changes that much, sure the phase of rear entry came and went, but really how different is a 1980's 4 clip boot to a 2008 4 clip boot. The limiting factor in the design is what's inside it, i.e. your Foot. Plastics technology has moved on for sure, but the principles of fit are still the same, lateral stiffness, combined with forward flex, close fitting shell and comfort. There's still nowhere near as much change in Boot design as there has been in Skis.
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veeeight, It's a case of having too, given the decrease in mobility in the ankle area we are being forced to play with the Zeppa angles to such a degree that if we then don't balance the boot skiing is hard work.
So biomechanics do seem to be changing at an alarming and viseable rate.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
So biomechanics do seem to be changing at an alarming and viseable rate.
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biomechanics hasn't changed....peoples ROM has changed due to various factors........ big difference
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SOS, better tools and marketing.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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CEM, Hmmmmmm, Evolutionary arguement. 3 more generations and we'll be on all fours.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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woof
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What changes are you guys seeing over time ?
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You know it makes sense.
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Quick question that I was just wondering about - do footbeds get made with shell in mind, or are they universal?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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DaveC,
Made with the foot and boot in mind then cut, machined or ground to fit - its a harmony thing.
that said - I have see a lot of pizzas fliped (shops knocking out footbeds by the dozen into a three finger shell check) where the have been 'hacked-to-fit'.
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Poster: A snowHead
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david@mediacopy, ohh, lots. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, Vario cuts are that good, are they?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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comprex, Mate, i honestly never understand anything you write, anything. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Sack it - I may as well be direct with my question. Do I go see CEM in the UK and get footbeds, potentially shells, then sort the rest out in Fernie... or the fitter with a good rep in Fernie that only does custom shells/injection foam/conformable footbeds and charges $1400 + taxes for the final product?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Go and see CEM, allow a couple of visits to get them perfect, test them in a dome/plastic in between visits. What he doesn't know or can't do with boots isn't worth knowing. You won't be disappointed. See you in Fernie. I'll buy you a Beer.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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DaveC, I know what i'd do
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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DaveC, Why can't Colin do your liners as well?
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FAQ
