 Poster: A snowHead
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I'm delighted to see that leather gloves with goretex liners are back on the scene. However, my fave (Spyder) doesn't fit so well.
I'm dying to get back to the comfort and durability I had with my old Marker goretex and thinsulate hand shoes so anyone got any suggestions?
I have checked Slush and Rubble and Ellis B to no avail (and done a significant bunch of web searching).
Supplementary question for extra points - saw a nice looking (but where's the performance?) pair in Val D'Isere (I think in Favre sports) couple of weeks ago. A very short brand name (Tevo? elka?elko?lkoe?veto? - no idea myself really). Anyone know what they might be called?
Sorry it's a really minor question, but I have a bit of a glove fetish... 
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 21-12-04 19:57; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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There's only make of glove to have, Hestra. I've had mine since March 2002, a stunning length of service.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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ise, Hestra seem to be great (most of my friends love em) but I really really want a goretex liner. Am I being stubborn? Yes...
Although I really do like the all white slalom ones they claim to make, but never seen them stocked anywhere.
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I'm not sure I understand why goretex makes a good material for gloves?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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David Murdoch,
Eider make a gauntlet in leather with a gore-tex line. I got my from either EB or SNR about 2 years ago and they cost £70.00, I think. I rotate these with Hesta's which are great, with a sheep-skin type liner but I didn't get the gauntlet option which I much prefer now.
Anothe excellent glove mostly of leather was an Invicta gauntlet..they retired a few years ago but I have kept them in the attic and still wish I could wear them again...superb..!!
Having said all that I got a pair of condura gauntlets from the cheapo shop in Cham'-sud and they did sterling work. They have a fleece inner...They cost 100 ff when i bought them years ago...
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ise, valid query ... I think. Do you mean a goretex membrane isn't appropriate for gloves at all, or just inside leather gloves?
I had a pair of Marker branded leather gloves with a goretex membrane and thinsulate lining. They lasted about 240 days. They didn't smell (sorry I have a smelly hand personal problem if my gloves don't dry out properly), they were always warm when I wanted warm and I could ski hot April days comfortably. Never had a pair of gloves like them since.
So...I've been trying to find replacements for about 7 years. And using the Marker ones as a template.
I think from that experience that GoreTex can make an appropriate liner, but appreciate the intuition of why would you add a breathable, waterproof liner to a material that is likely to get sodden. Any way, it worked once!
JT, thanks, I'll try and find the Eider ones. My current 31 gloves are an invicta leather race pair which are nearly perfect...
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David Murdoch,
Try the Eider site and nav through to Gloves....
http://www.eider-world.com/04en/product.asp?r=snow
It would not post the URL completely but they are called the Altiport.
If you are going through Chamonix maybe you can pick these up.
I have found this company very good to deal with in France.
I ripped my jacket on a rock and they replaced the whole section in XCR
for less than £40.00 inc post, in about 10 days max. I was delighted as they saved the jacket
and a lot of money...!!
Very impressed
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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David Murdoch, interesting, I think I'll stick to fleece liners though. I find goretex is overrated in any application really.
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ise, will agree to disagree, although will propose an example. New Year's Day 2001, p*ssing rain to above (at least) 3,000m. By 2nd chair en route to Avoriaz everyone on chair was wet except me. I was the only one with goretex kit, top to tail.
Although will agree that choosing gear on the grounds that it makes skiing in the rain acceptable is open to question. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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David Murdoch, I had a pair of Reuch -30 leather and gortex gloves beat I ever had they got eaten by mice in the loft of my old house  I don't know whether you can still get them or not though.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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ise,
I agree with your Hestra recommendation. Problem is finding them in the UK - their web site is next to useless & I went everywhere looking for them with no joy & only found two models at the Ski Show. When I was in Verbier the other week many of the stores carried a full range. Too late for me though as I'd already bought a pair of the whizz bang Spyder gloves (what else!) that David Murdoch mentioned. Luckily their sizes fit me just fine & their performance has been great so far.
For spring/hot weather skiing I use a pair of Oakley MTB Factory Pilot gloves - absolutely superb!
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ISE you said
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I find goretex is overrated in any application really.
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Why? I've been very pleased with my XCR jacket and pants - again, I do ski in the rain, more fool me. I do get condensation buildup if I over layer, but I prefer that to my old SOS tea bag experiences.
What would you use instead?
Thanks
DM
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You know it makes sense.
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David Murdoch, it's crap, that's why 
It works fantastically when new but the lifetime is too short. I've got a Billabong boarding jacket I've used for about 7 years, a Columbia shell I wear over a fleece and, new this season, a Kjus jacket and trousers.
Back before goretex, climbing and walking etc we used to have layers of clothing, with a layers wicking moisture away, this still works just fine.
XCR looks to be an improvement but mostly it's all just a con to get people buying expensive clothes to wear for a fortnight a year then down the pub. I fail to see why it all has to be breathable, if it's warm why not undo the bloody zip or take it off? If it's warm in spring I just wear a fleece which is always going to better than breathable shell.
Just another way for companies to relieve the masses of the money as far as I can see.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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ise, oooOOOOoooo, someone's got a pube caught in a zip 
You guys need to look at m'cycle stuff to find what you need at ½ the price the ski extortionists want. And the MX gear has built in CE armour.
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Poster: A snowHead
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My XCR works very well. A good old poly cotton may be more breathable but if it is it will not be waterproof. And if you waterproof it any gore-tex will out-perform it, let alone XCR.
For me, the best thing around for being weather-proof.
And I have had my Gore-text jackets for 10 years. They don't perform as new but they are still useable so that off-sets the cost. £300:00 over 10 years is very good value in my book for a jacket. I get bored with them before I have to through them out.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Fine, but why do we keep insisting all the clothes we wear on the slopes must be breathable? What's the actual requirement? Warm and dry seems obvious and quick drying looks pretty important but why breathable?
It's not like the non-breathable fabrics are like wearing a plastic bag is it?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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ise, obviously a 'recreational' skier then? 
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The real key is that as we've demanded better waterproofing for our kit, we’ve also demanded that it be ‘as’ or more comfortable. Thus ‘breathability’(sic) has allowed his to happen. We’re just paying for the research and production technology. We’re still being screwed, but not quite as badly as we feel.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Masque,
Yes, must admit, paying top dollar for a jacket made in the far East is a bit rich. I don't mind paying
for a jacket made in Europe or the States where the salary is higher so I can see the justification for it.
But the wages in the far east are nothing like it so that manufacturer is clearly profitearing.
That is why I don't buy Berghaus anymore, or North Face and even Arc'teryx now they have been high-jacked by Salomon. They are all made in the far east but are all expensive kit.!!
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ise,
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It's not like the non-breathable fabrics are like wearing a plastic bag is it?
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IMHE, I've found it is! Maybe I'm just a sweaty fellow, but I've been generally comfortable in gore-tex properly layered but grossy uncomfortable in anything unbreathable that's also waterproof.
In fairness, my old SOS jeans were fabulously comfortable, but about as rainproof as an old teabag. Maybe I'm unusual but I ski in bursts - bursts of high activity interspersed with longer bursts of sitting on chairs, etc. My old uniform of cotton t-shirts, sweatshirts and a water repellent coated cotton jacket didn't really work. My current "technical" fabrics seem near indestructible, work brilliantly and cost little different.
I could open the zip, but then the wind would get in, I could take it off, but I don't like skiing with jackets round my waist or back packs.
And my XCR jacket is at something around 140 ski days plus a weeks sailing off Scotland and still bombproof.
Only my opinion
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If your SOS trousers weren't waterproof then why didn't you just spray them with some waterproofing?
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If your SOS trousers weren't waterproof then why didn't you just spray them with some waterproofing?
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I did, also TX-Direct wash through, Nikwax spray and wash through, etc. Always followed instructions, used proper WRC friendly detergents, always worked for a while and perfectly fine in (light) snow, but skiing the PDS often means suffering a bit of rain on the way up and down to decent altitude.
I think the threads ultimately just became too think and the pores too big.
A real shame as they're a delightful colour of pale lime green. Sooooo 1980s.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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David Murdoch,
I'm with you on this. All the other fabrics I have found are either great thermally, breathable or waterproof. If you desire all 3 and some, then gore-tex is the best. If you can sacrifice it being waterproof, - I wouldn't - then others may be more breathable. But as soon as you try to waterprof it, their breathable properties are massively out classed by gore-tex fabrics
It may not be the final answer but I think it is the best fabric so far IMO.
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But why? If you ask why use Goretex and get the answer that it's the best breathable fabric then it's not much an answer. Why do we need breathable fabrics? I can't help but conclude the answer is because the retailers and manufacturers told us we did.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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ise, so you don't get too wet with sweat. If you layer properly then the steam is moved away from your skin and ultimately out through all the layers to the air. If it gets stuck under your jacket then it will condense and you'll be damp. That then ruins the ability of the insulating layer to insulate and you get cold and damp.
Thats the theory.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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and does anyone in the majority of days they're on the slope find themselves actually in that situation ? Does anyone actually sweat so much that moisture actually makes it all the way from the base layer throught the other layers? And wouldn't undoing the zip work just as well? These are ski clothes, not a dry suit you're sealed into. An underarm vent works as well as anything else.
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marc gledhill, having done the Pennine Way in an old, cheap kagoule, I can vouch that it can work like that in practice, too.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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ise, Sweating depends a lot on physiology. For the same level of exertion different people will sweat in vastly different quantities. Some of us can soak right through to the shell layer and that’s even with breathable fabrics. Others will barely glow. We have to choose the products that suit us. When I was seriously fitter (longer ago than I care to think about) I could pour it out of my x-trainers – much to the disgust of some. It’s a matter of muscle mass, fat insulation and core temperature regulation.
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Poster: A snowHead
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skanky, yep, works the same mountain biking too.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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and does anyone in the majority of days they're on the slope find themselves actually in that situation ? Does anyone actually sweat so much that moisture actually makes it all the way from the base layer throught the other layers? And wouldn't undoing the zip work just as well?
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Speaking only for myself, oh, yes, I do. And I have reasonable empirical proof that a non-breathable waterproof collects significantly more condensation on the inner surface that my gtex stuff (and is significantly less comfortable). Undoing the zip doesn't work for me and pit zips in my reasonably closely fitted shell don't allow air to circulate that well.
But all my own personal preference. I guess I just wondered if you had discovered something that worked better with fewer compromises. 
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it makes me laugh when people wear cotton Tshirts or polo necks under a goretex jacket
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Took me a while to believe this could be a problem - actually took 5 minutes once I'd swapped M&S cotton T for Patagonia synthetic - an amazing difference. As they say "cotton'll kill ya".
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Masque, I can vouch for that. I'm the one on the hill (even when skiing, sometimes) who's asked if its raining when the skies are clear. I can sometimes end up with just a base layer on top in conditions where people think it's very cold, and still want to change my t-shirt at the top (yes they're wicking t-shirts, not cotton). The advantage of the wicking t-shirts for me is they dry out more quickly. I do sweat buckets very easily. Actually, I sweat sweat very easily, even kids' buckets would stretch the pores somewhat.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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What works for me through lots of trial and error is micofleece, fleece200 and XCR shell. This is the most comfortable I have ever been and warm as toast...!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Ah panic over. Have resurrected an old pair that were absolutely fine except that they stank. A quick rinse through with Milton sterilising fluid and I think I have sorted the glove requirement.
Jolly useful stuff this Milton.
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From someone who professionally stands outside in weather that your average whale wouldn't be too impressed with.... Goretex, and all the other breathable/waterproof membranes are a gift from the gods. Is it expensive? yes - is it worth it? would be if it cost 5x more!
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David Murdoch, Tog 24 sell leather goretex gloves BTW.
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IanB, if you mean on boats then you're quite right. If you mean in a ski station then it's an interesting thing to do... the answer's not goretex though.
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