 Poster: A snowHead
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right guys bit of help for someone who doesnt know a lot about the technical side of ski equipment etc. why are twin tip skis more difficult to ski on piste? i know some of them have huge waists and for those skis i can understand they will be difficult to turn and get a good edge with. however i have seen a lot of twin tips with a waist of 83-90mm and i have seen on piste skis that have a waist of up to 85mm so those skis are really quite similar. so in these cases why do they ski so differently? what effect does the twin tip have on the ski when using it on piste? sorry if im coming across as being really dense but its something thats really confusing me
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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who says they are more difficult to ski on piste?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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well from what ive read on here everyone says they are ok for on piste but not that great and when ive looked on maufacturers websites it always seems to be twin tips are for people who ski 70% off piste
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Even more ignorant question: what's the point of twin tips anyway?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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No obvious reason that I can think of. The twin-tip means that slightly less edge is in contact with the snow when skiing on-piste (compared to a regular ski of the same length). Perhaps the twin tips you've skied were quite soft and therefore couldn't hold an edge when skiing fast on piste?
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grazygeorges, I confess to never having read it .. although some (most?) twin tips sem to be spedifically designed/marketed for park/pipe/freestyle so it would be a reasonable deduction that they are less suitable for piste use.
I have a pair of Volkl Bridge twin-tips and by BH says I ski better on piste with them than my 'piste' skis ( however all things are relative) . I wouldnt go near a park and freestyle is , in my case, highly unlikely.
Which kind of begs an answer to Hurtle, 's question from someone who never goes backwards voluntarily .. they were recommended as Beginner off-piste skis. They work brilliantly for that , the ease of doing wider/GS turns on them on piste has been a massive bonus. There is of course the ease of getting them in gondola ski racks ....not.
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as rob@rar says I believe many twin tips are relatively soft (which many favour as an off-piste ski). The main problem with them on-piste is suffered by the poor sod behind who has to put up with a face full of snow 
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see this is where i get so confused as ive seen the volkl bridge skis and it says they are made specifically for park/pipe so i would never look twice at them because of what their own website says. however like you say, you ski with them better on piste and while i was in snow and rock a few weeks back the guy said there that twin tips are easier to ski so i dont know whats what. sorry to sound even dimmer but are soft skis easier to ski/turn and stiffer skis harder to use but more stable at speed?
haha how do you actually get twin tips in a gondola ski rack?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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use two slots.
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I think people make the mistake of terming twin tips as a type of ski. They are not, but rather just a part of a ski that is designed for a purpose i.e. to allow the ski to ski switch, weather that mean in the park, landing a jump switch or backing up in a tight spot.
Skis should be classified as.
Piste skis (designed to stay on piste)
All Mountain (designed to do everything but nothing the best)
Freestyle (designed to stay in the park)
Back Country (off piste)
(There are alwasy going to be sub catagories in these)
So.... if a ski is a twin tip it's not be designed just to stay on piste but to help the ski ride switch and take it into the park or back country therefor it'll probalbly be softer than a piste ski to allow buttering, jumping, landing and powder and will probably be wider than a piste only ski. This width and softness will mean that the ski will arguably take longer to get from edge to edge and not hold an edge as well as a ski designed to stay on piste.
PS, the Brige is an all mountain ski with a park/back country bias. I would call the Wall as Volkls park ski.
PPS, confused......please call 911
PPPS, sorry about my spelling.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Mon 1-09-08 10:25; edited 2 times in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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grazygeorges, Mine were recommended to me by Smallzookeeper as an alternative to Scott Missions et al ( which I did find softer) and I wouldnt call the Bridge 'soft' .. I have 177s ( my piste skis are 170) ... he was absolutely right a magic ski ... for me.
I do have to concentrate harder when skiing them on piste as it easy to get lazy and straightline them with a consequent increase in speed ( not good for me!) ... I enjoy them on piste in that they are very different to short-turning skis .. I wouldnt say better , my BH does , just different. I wouldnt like to try and continually short turn them for more than a few minutes. I am a lower intermediate and nowhere near as competent as most on this board.
Gondolas? -- one in each hole or a Board 'slot'.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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grazygeorges, good question - always useful to read the replies to questions like this, about which many of are rather hazy and rely on advice from others more knowledgeable. 
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| Agenterre wrote: |
grazygeorges,
Gondolas? -- one in each hole or a Board 'slot'. |
oi ! bluddy 'ell - there are hardly enough for us boarders without you lot using them up for your skis too !!! 
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You know it makes sense.
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kiwi1 has it right in my book. a turned up tail of itself won't make much difference unless you are going backwards (it will make the ski feel a little shorter than its stated length on hard snow though.) sidecut and flex will make much more difference
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brian
brian
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| Even more ignorant question: what's the point of twin tips anyway? |
They're for skiing (especially landing) switch, ie. backwards, but they also come in handy for mid life crises. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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brian, actually I did know that (not the mid-life crisis bit!) I just wondered, and should have said, who would be wanting to ski backwards in the normal course of things or off-piste. I hadn't thought of backing up in a tight spot - but it's not impossible to do that on ordinary skis.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| brian, actually I did know that (not the mid-life crisis bit!) I just wondered, and should have said, who would be wanting to ski backwards in the normal course of things or off-piste. |
i recall there was a thread on this very subject on TGR entitled something like "Is skiing switch in powder ghey?"
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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You can get a photo of where you've been without stopping, it makes talking on the mobile easier as it's shielded from the wind, similarly unwrapping sandwiches, lighting a pipe, etc...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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grazygeorges, I've been using twin tips on and off piste for years and have only recently bought a pair of normal ski's, but they were for race training. I've always looked at them as good all round 'Easy' ski's !
Agenterre, The Volkl Bridge are OK then ? I've a pair of Karma's and love them and have been wondering about replacements.
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I found that my standard skis tend to dig the backs in when backing up around trees and mounds in off piste forests. I almost got stuck once... looked like a demented tree sprite flailing around trying to get out without falling over.
At the age of 41 I'm about to buy a pair of twin tips, but in my defence I can now make gentle turns when sking backwards so I will be using them for the intended purpose.
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ok well if twin tips are generally softer than piste skis and this is the main reason behind them not being great on piste, which twin tips are more suited to on piste i.e. stiffer and slimmer and which are more suited to off piste i.e. softer and wider?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| I hadn't thought of backing up in a tight spot - but it's not impossible to do that on ordinary skis. |
Not impossible, but more difficult especially in loose snow. Only time I had to back up last season (40 degree pitch, rocks everywhere) I was hugely grateful I had twin tips on that day.
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My own theory is that besides the rooster tail which is just funs & the backing up thing the other benefit is that you get a bigger surface area in powder for a shorter effective edge. Hence manoeuvrable in trees etc but with added float. I refer to rockered skis which ski even shorter compared to their actual length. I don't think there are many pure "freeride" skis now that don't have at least a little bit of a kick tail (unless they have a swallow or hull)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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whats backup side slip mean?
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My lil sis was given twin tips as her first skis when learning last season. She insisted that it was this that was holding her back, and I spent *ages* trying to convince her that it was almost certainly making no difference whatsoever.
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You know it makes sense.
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come on then guys lets have your wisdom rather listen to you guys than someone in a shop just trying to sell me something - ok well if twin tips are generally softer than piste skis and this is the main reason behind them not being great on piste, which twin tips are more suited to on piste i.e. stiffer and slimmer and which are more suited to off piste i.e. softer and wider?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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grazygeorges, iif you have been caught in a gully which requires a side slip and you have no room to conventionally slip down the falline..you may have to zig-zag across...by rocking the skis forwards and backwards..and then you'll need the rear tips to not snag in snow when going backwards. You need to be very careful at this as the snagging could lead to you falling over backwards and head-first downhill...at exactly the wrong place you'll ever want to do this.
When you find yourself in this postion you'll know what I mean
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Poster: A snowHead
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grazygeorges, I think this thread shows the importance of demos/tests. The best thing you can do is to demo as many skis as possible. We don't know what sort of skiing/skier you are/do so it's hard to advise on a ski.
Most of the indoor slopes in the UK offer ski demos through shops like Ellis Brighams or get yourself to Chill Factore on the last Friday (night) of every month where a number of manufacters have skis to try.
Loads of people on this site have their own gear and each of them can tell you why their skis are good on piste but one skiers perfect ski can be the next persons noodle.
Ski tests/demos are the way to go.
It's fun trying loads of different skis. Good luck in your search.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| grazygeorges wrote: |
| ok well if twin tips are generally softer than piste skis and this is the main reason behind them not being great on piste |
Aren't they ? Never had a problem myself. I guess it depends on what you compare them with, and the specific twin tip you are looking at, but if you hunt down a good 'all rounder' you will not have a problem. For many skiers a software ski will easier to use than a stiff 'performance' piste ski.
I get on well with Volkl Karma's and prior to that I've owned several pairs of Salomon 1080's.
The current Volkl model is called the Bridge and seems to suit Agenterre.
I do own 'performance' piste ski's but in all honesty most of the time they are far too much like hard work.
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brian
brian
Guest
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david@mediacopy, as kiwi1 points out above, the Bridge is Voelkl's "bridge" between park ski and freeride ski. The Wall is the successor to the Karma.
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| david@mediacopy wrote: |
| grazygeorges wrote: |
| ok well if twin tips are generally softer than piste skis and this is the main reason behind them not being great on piste |
Aren't they ? Never had a problem myself. |
Although I don't have a problem with them, my twin tips (Karmas) are very poor on piste compared to my dedicated piste skis. They flap around at speed, don't hold a good edge and won't carve a tight radius turn without a huge amount of effort and skill. But off-piste they are much easier to ski on than my piste skis, and I'm sure they would be much better in the park if I were ever daft enough to try to land switch! So, horses for courses. Whatever ski you buy will be compromised in some situations when compared to a dedicated ski for that situation. As a buyer of skis you need to have a god understanding of what you want the skis to do so you end up with the best set of compromises for your situation.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, but presumably those issues are down to the flex/sidecut of the ski rather than the fact that their tails turn up a bit?
grazygeorges, i don't get why you're hung up on twintips. just try a bunch of skis out with or without twin tip and buy the ones you like OR just buy skis you think look cool and learn to ski them
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A further point alluded to in brian's article about twin tips making up a percentage of "flat" ski sales. Many manufacturers have integrated binding systems for their piste oriented skis - if you want to choose your own binding or perhaps don't quite buy all the "free flexing" marketing mumbo jumbo then twins form a significant proportion of your spectrum of choice. Of course in order to support sales of the integrated systems the marketing guys have to position them as high performance so twin tips necessarily have to be positioned as park or off piste or something else.
I suspect a good tune & technique makes more difference to whether a ski within 5-10mm of width holds an edge on piste than whether it is twin tip or conventional.
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im not hung up on twin tips just really wanted to know why they dont perform as well on piste as standard skis. if the twin tip doesnt make that much difference to the overall ski then why dont manufacturers give the ski the same stiffness,flex and sidecut as normal skis just with the added twin tip? like i say i dont know all the techy things to do with skiing, i have no idea about bindings not got a clue what a DIN setting is etc so thought i would come on here to learn a bit from you guys. if you dont ask you dont learn 
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brian
brian
Guest
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| grazygeorges wrote: |
| im not hung up on twin tips just really wanted to know why they dont perform as well on piste as standard skis. if the twin tip doesnt make that much difference to the overall ski then why dont manufacturers give the ski the same stiffness,flex and sidecut as normal skis just with the added twin tip? |
Most twin tip skis are predominantly park skis, so they're designed for arsing around in pipes and big jumps and so on. The optimal flex pattern for that is not optimal for a fast, carving ski or a big mountain freeride ski or whatever.
Of course, loads of TT buyers go nowhere near a park. Much like 90+% of SUV drivers never get the tyres muddy.
Last edited by brian on Mon 1-09-08 14:18; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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and aren't park skis generally skied quite a bit shorter? (I wouldn't know as I only do very small jumps, and only frontwards...)
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| Arno wrote: |
rob@rar, but presumably those issues are down to the flex/sidecut of the ski rather than the fact that their tails turn up a bit?
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Yes, entirely. The fact they ski a bit short when on piste isn't a big issue for me. Because they are soft, wide and have a fairly long radius sidecut is what compromises their on-piste performance.
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FAQ
