 Poster: A snowHead
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It now looks like for those doing their ISIA or ISTD tech, or any coaching course, that the new ski regulations are not going to be in force this year!
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| My main regret is the relatively short notice for those of you taking one of these courses this year to prepare and become familiar with these skis. For this I apologise. After much debate and following some good counter arguments from you the members as to the timing of this change, this will now changed to ‘New Ski Recommendation - Greater than 17m for men and 15m for women are a requirement for this course, not essential’. |
The quote is taken from the the information available on the BASI website.
What I would like to know is are they going to be gearing the courses towards the shorter or longer radius skis this year, and what should we use??
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Requirement = not essential  Methinks I need a new dictionary.
Maybe they mean recommendation.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Article in full:
http://www.basi.org.uk/docs/EquipmentChangesfinal.doc
Must say I feel he contradicts himself in this article. On the one hand he says they want to encourage us to ski on the type of skis you’ll be using in the speed test as you work your way through the system. But he then says slalom race skis are not good for bumps, steeps and variables. So is he saying that GS skis are great for bumps and variables?!
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I read it out of curiosity more than anything - I thought the jist was pretty sensible - You're going to have to be able to ski everything on one set of skis eventually and those skis are unlikely to be tiny radius. Its all aimed at making BASI alumni better skiers I guess just poor communication
Everyone should just turn up on Blizzard Kreitler Pros (I believe one of the straightest mainstream skis out there) & be done with it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
| After all if someone said to you that you will develop faster and risk less on a different pair of skis, would you not change them? |
[rant]I was told that. I changed them. You changed the requirement.[/rant]
AAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I've been told it's all down to the injury stats on the courses...
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beanie1, don't they cover that in the answer to myth 3?
I liked this bit
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Myth 1 It is easier to succeed through the ISIA and ISTD BASI courses with slalom skis
Truth 1 Slalom skis fit neatly in a cool Snowboard Bag. The rest is nonsense; BASI’s technical courses at the higher levels (ISIA and ISTD) require you to be highly skilled at many different aspects of the sport. No one ski can perfectly address all the areas. Recently the trend has been to use very short slalom racing skis for these courses. These skis while manoeuvrable are intensely responsive due to their shape (11m – 13m radius normally) and design (stiffer torsionally). While these skis perform very well at the medium radius turn on hard pack snow they do not fit ideally in to the other outcome requirements we have on these specific courses. For example:
Piste Performance: Skiing at higher speeds requires a stiffer ski with a gradual side cut (radius) that allows the pilot to do longer, more flowing turns with stability. Short turns can be even be difficult to achieve on Slalom race skis as the radius of turn is normally shorter than 10m and because the slalom race ski is so close to this radius it requires even more skill to blend the steering elements to achieve the result than a ski that has a totally different side cut where blending is required from start to finish.
Bumps ideally require a ski without an extreme side cut so that the ski can reflect and continue on the fall line path without turning too much or catching an edge. Specially designed bumps skis are designed with this in mind.
Steeps and Variable requires a slightly thicker ski that when on edge can still stay on the surface. Shorter skis have a tendency to catch and dive under the snow making it very difficult to control the movements. |
Pretty much why I like my detuned Stockli GS skis for an every day all around ski, instead of the Slalom ski I used before,..... I guess.... 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Sean L has done lots of good in a very short time at BASI but i think they need to think changes through a bit more and consolidate instead of making it up as they go along.
The coaching courses have been constantly changing (the website is still showing last years course levels, and the CSCF link up is a joke), the UK senior instructor qualification seems to be changing as they go and now this. The final solution is reasonable and one i would have advocated. Making costly changes in rules about equipment should be eased in and the orginal rule was ill thought out and poorly worded. I heard that some of the trainers thought the injury stats are bollucks, they may apply to FIS races but not ISIA/ISTD course injuries.. at a recent trainers conference only Sean and one other were on GS skis the rest all had SL's on and werent too happy about having to get 17m, in between, skis for courses.
I'm not too happy on this change. Firstly i order a pair of Head supershape magnums which i would be delgithed to have as my 'all round ski' then find out after the fact are not 'legal'. after some grovelling i manage to cancel my order and then get some AC30's which conform to the new rules. Now i find they arent rules at all and my original choice would have been okay and i have skis which will probably put me at a disadvantage to the rest of the class....
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Fri 1-08-08 9:05; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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It seems that Education, not Regulation is the answer, and perhaps should be the sort of thing covered in the early L1 & L2 type courses if its a big issue.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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david@mediacopy, well said.. it would be interesting to read any published data on injuries sustained during the Eurotest and/or BASI courses. I wonder if BASI even compiles any stats on injuries sustained on their courses, let alone the causes of the injuries.
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skimottaret, I don't know if they compile them in HQ, but when we lost one of our L2 group to a strained medial ligament the Trainer did say it meant some extra paperwork for him to send to BASI.
Glad to see that BASI have had an attack of Common Sense on this issue. I agree that the extensive change the organisation has been through in the last couple of years (overwhelmingly for the good) has led to one or two blind spots which it would have been nice if they could have been avoided.
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You know it makes sense.
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The trainer I moaned to about this said he has no idea what the radius of his skis is, but has already said he won’t be changing them!
I’m pleased they’ve changed the timescales, but I’m not really in agreement with the thinking behind this. There are so many different styles of skiing and skiers, and BASI should be trying to be inclusive. By having such prescriptive rules they reinforce the image of the BASI clone being made to ski in shapes – I thought they were trying to move away from this.
Fair point about getting used to skis you’ll be using in the speed test, but the vast majority of instructors will never get to this level. And surely when and where people train with their GS style skis should be up to them, they shouldn’t be made to use them for every other aspect of their skiing?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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rob@rar, agreed on balance the changes have been hugely beneficial but the odd bump in the road can undo a lot of the good work and make the organisation appear amateurish. For instance did you ever get a copy of any of the course material on the CT course as promised?
If they collect stats wouldn't it be good to publish them for the membership and to try to make some educated guesses as to common causes of injuries as opposed to making unsubstantiated comments about ACL injuries due to short radius skis and then backtrack later?
as david@mediacopy, says education is key and as a members organisation i am disappointed that they dont make more information readily available. For instance on the old website they had a library of articles from previous editions of the newsletter, these arent available anymore and would be of great use to members... All ISTD's have to do a research paper why arent these available for review?
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Poster: A snowHead
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skimottaret, If they were taking injury stats from FIS races then I would expect the conclusion to be that longer sidecut radius skis were more dangerous than smaller ones.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rjs, yes but are FIS races relevent to BASI courses? i can see the logic for the a radius restriction for the Eurotest but on an all round course like the ISIA or ISTD tech/teach i dont believe the claim of injuries due to short radius skis. i think you rightly made the point once that as a reasonably competent skier you wont get into trouble on SL skis going too fast on piste and that you should be able to regulate your speed effectively.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| beanie1 wrote: |
| Fair point about getting used to skis you’ll be using in the speed test, but the vast majority of instructors will never get to this level. And surely when and where people train with their GS style skis should be up to them, they shouldn’t be made to use them for every other aspect of their skiing? |
Except that you wouldn't do your speed test on 15m skis, you would need >21m ones next season or >23 after that.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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rjs, making BASI's argument for the new rule even sillier!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| rjs, yes but are FIS races relevent to BASI courses? |
I'm suggesting that whatever injury statistics BASI are using probably exclude racing.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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beanie1,
| Quote: |
Fair point about getting used to skis you’ll be using in the speed test, but the vast majority of instructors will never get to this level. And surely when and where people train with their GS style skis should be up to them, they shouldn’t be made to use them for every other aspect of their skiing?
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i agree, there are what like 20 or 30 ISTD/eruotest passes a year and once at that level you will be training on proper GS skis not 17m in betweeners..
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and another rant, beanie1, werent we were told on the Coaches course we needed SL skis and Helmets. The presumption was as SL skis you needed a chin guard cause you will be running an SL course. In the end we needed GS skis for only one day of the course was in GS gates. So did i really need to buy shin/chin guards..
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| easiski wrote: |
VolklAttivaS5, At the end of the day, as a working ski teacher you will only be able to ski on one pair of skis per day. You may have more than one pair, but will have to choose which pair to use each day. You will also have to expect that they will be stamped on, that you will have to stand on a beginner's skis to stop them sliding forward while getting up, that you may not be able to avoid all stones as you would free skiing since you are setting a line for others.... It seems to me that BASI is trying to make the board a little more even, but to force people to ski a longer radius ski when they may have a personal preference for a shorter one is unfair! However, I wouldn't be wanting to do bumps on Missionsn (too wide).  You should definitely start skiing on detuned race skis as soon as possible - the difference on piste (whichever you choose), will be huge. You'll never want to go back to your ladies skis!  |
Agreed about only being able to ski on one pair of skis per day! I only have 2 pairs at the moment, first pair was the Volkl Attiva S5's which I'd used on piste and they were really good, they were a bit narrow for off piste so I bought some Missions for off piste mainly which are good for that. You're right about the Missions in the Bumps, they are not as easy as my Volkls to use in there I have to admit.
When you say get myself a pair of detuned race skis asap, and that I'll never want to go back to my ladies skis, do you mean that the race skis will be much stiffer torsionally compared with my Volkls? Presumably my Volkl Attiva S5's must be a softer flex than a standard Volkl ski, although the S5's are a high intermediate to advanced piste ski so say.
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| VolklAttivaS5 wrote: |
| When you say get myself a pair of detuned race skis asap, and that I'll never want to go back to my ladies skis, do you mean that the race skis will be much stiffer torsionally compared with my Volkls? Presumably my Volkl Attiva S5's must be a softer flex than a standard Volkl ski, although the S5's are a high intermediate to advanced piste ski so say. |
There's a huge difference in stiffness, torsionally and longitudinally, between race skis and retail skis even a high end piste ski. The difference between the Rossi 9S Oversize and the Rossi 9S WC is massive.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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If BASI really wanted to be progressive they could put people on something in the modern "all mountain" moderate size with a waist width of say 85-90mm & a radius of 20m or more. After all this is where consumer skis seem to be trending towards.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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skimottaret, rob@rar, VolklAttivaS5, beanie1, etc
interesting comment here
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When development squad selections take place in early season, we ski them hard and fast off the groom .... The best talent in this terrain, will generally always be the most sucessful on race courses and the 'easiest' athletes to progress.
Athletes who have developed a 'feeling' for their skis will excel. Skiing fats hinders skill acquisition, and it shows at tryouts. They lack basic skills, because these skis are dull, and don't help the athlete. |
from http://forums.ski.com.au/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=481927#Post481927
He is talking about racers - but from what I am told the same applies to general public and instructors - at least one ex instructor trainer makes a similar comment re developing skills on fat skis earlier in the thread....
Something to consider when thinking about ski choices.... if your intention is to improve further rather than just get the 'pin' then you should think about whether quick return in the form of a pass now will be worth balancing against longer term improvement
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| fatbob wrote: |
| I... something in the modern "all mountain" moderate size with a waist width of say 85-90mm & a radius of 20m or more. After all this is where consumer skis seem to be trending towards. |
Is that really true? When I look around lift queues I don't see that many people skiing 90mm skis. 70-80mm perhaps, but not so often fatter than that.
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You know it makes sense.
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little tiger, not really sure what your point is?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| fatbob wrote: |
| I... something in the modern "all mountain" moderate size with a waist width of say 85-90mm & a radius of 20m or more. After all this is where consumer skis seem to be trending towards. |
Is that really true? When I look around lift queues I don't see that many people skiing 90mm skis. 70-80mm perhaps, but not so often fatter than that. |
To be fair I spent >50% of my ski days last season in N America and the others in resorts in Europe that tend to attract the fat ski brigade so my sample might be slightly skewed (that was why I downgraded from 100mm  )
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Poster: A snowHead
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beanie1, your technical development will be better served by a thinner waisted ski rather than a fat..... So the "I need a fatter waisted ski to help me pass" bit is not helpful if you are looking at technical improvement...rather than getting a 'pin'
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I've never heard anyone say they need a fat ski to help them pass a BASI course... Normally people are wnting to use slalom skis!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| beanie1 wrote: |
| I've never heard anyone say they need a fat ski to help them pass a BASI course... Normally people are wnting to use slalom skis! |
I used my 'fat' skis (Volkl Karma) for one day of my L2 course. Hated it. It was fine for the variable conditions we skied that day, but really didn't feel good in the on-piste stuff we were doing, either short radius or long radius turns. Did the rest of the course on my all purpose skis (Elan Magfire 12 which are 76mm under foot) which felt like a good compromise ski.
I did the L1 course on my slalom skis which were OK, but it seemed a bit too much like hard work when we doing Central Theme stuff. A 'tamer' ski would probably have been a bit more relaxing.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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rob@rar, I did my L1 and L2 on retail GS skis. They were early carvers (1999 i think) so the radius would have been huge! So I don't really know why i'm making a fuss now... probably a point of principle as I hate being told what to do!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| beanie1 wrote: |
| So I don't really know why i'm making a fuss now... probably a point of principle as I hate being told what to do!! |
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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beanie1,
posted by a snowheads in another thread
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| little tiger, most of the GS or skier cross skis are a bit narrow underfoot for me as i am rather large. looking around 75mm mark |
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| Yes, I can ski them in those places but not to the level of easily passing my exams and need all the help i can get! As I said earlier most people fail in bumps and variables so i am looking for a (slightly) wider ski that will help me in those conditions yet can still turn well and hold an edge on piste. |
| Quote: |
| Just a little bit wider than a race department ski to help with the variable snow conditions that he will be assessed on |
contrast
| Quote: |
| Skiing fats hinders skill acquisition, and it shows at tryouts. They lack basic skills, because these skis are dull, and don't help the athlete. |
| Quote: |
Myth 1 It is easier to succeed through the ISIA and ISTD BASI courses with slalom skis
Truth 1 Slalom skis fit neatly in a cool Snowboard Bag. The rest is nonsense |
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little tiger, entirely depends on your definition of fat skis. I don't consider 75mm to be fat, but if you consider anything which isn't a race department ski to be fat I'd guess most people will be on a different page to you.
Something around 75mm under foot with a radius of around 16-18m and a bit softer than a race department ski is a very good compromise ski IMO. Copes well with on-piste demands, provides a little bit of extra float in variable snow, is not so stiff that it makes bumps unnecessarily hard work, etc. Jack of all trades, master of none? Yes, probably. But that didn't seem to bother most of the people who taught me last season who generally were on skis of that specification unless we were skiing gates (in which case they used race department skis, either GS or slalom).
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rob@rar, the guy that wrote that description is talking about those that need to learn skills not those that have them already in place... I don't think he would try to suggest Nobis, or even Bode needs to use a race ski to learn better skills ....
Look what your BASI guy wrote in that last quote above - about SLALOM skis.... again he is suggesting GS skis will improve skill set.... Do you think these two guys on opposite sides of world got together and invented this idea?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| little tiger wrote: |
| ook what your BASI guy wrote in that last quote above - about SLALOM skis.... again he is suggesting GS skis will improve skill set.... |
And I'm suggesting that something with a little bit of extra float is better for passing exams
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little tiger, so are you saying that the only ski to improve skill set is a GS style ski? First you said fat skis won't, and now you say slalom skis won't - but a slalom ski is hardly a fat ski!
My view is that a good skier will be able to ski well with any ski, although certain types of ski will make certain types of skiing easier - eg fat ski for powder, GS for high speed piste etc.
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the guy that wrote that description is talking about those that need to learn skills not those that have them already in place...
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People doing their ISTD should already have those skills in place - you don't get to ISTD level in a 5 day course.
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FAQ
