 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I don't know why a second discipline is insisted on as as any shape of punter I would definitely feel shortchanged if I was taught by someone who had only picked up the second to satisfy some professional requirement.
It is extremely valuable though I think for all skiers (& in particular instructors) to appreciate the movement patterns involved and the different mechanics. Maybe this is the reason for the mandatory requirement.
I fear your first lesson went too easy - no face first slams? 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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fatbob, not quite sure why the second discipline is a mandatory requirement. There's probably a few good reasons why, but it was interesting to feel the different mechanics involved. I do hope I can progress quickly on the boarding. It was really fun once I got it.
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as any shape of punter I would definitely feel shortchanged if I was taught by someone who had only picked up the second to satisfy some professional requirement.
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Yes I agree, that's partly why I'm starting learning now in plenty of time so I can get good at it rather than just being "alright" enough to pass the L1 Snowboard. 
No face first slams here, not today anyway. Found the toe edge sliding backwards more difficult than the heel edge sliding. Had one proper fall when practising the toe edge slide-scratched my forearm on the brushes drawing blood despite wearing long sleeves! Can't wait to try it on snow come December.
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VolklAttivaS5, welcome to the light . . .
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think the second discipline is an ISIA requirement? It's a pain having to pick up a second discipline as far as I'm concerned, and I wouldn't dream of trying to teach it. Too many challenges and too little time to get skiing 'right', so as soon as I pass whatever second discipline I end up doing I'll quit and focus on my skiing.
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rob@rar
| VolklAttivaS5 wrote: |
Early days I know, but I thought I would start to learn how to snowboard so I can use that as my second discipline later on in the system for when I am going for my ISIA. |
Indeed it is an ISIA requirement. Might as well start learning it now though especially in these long summer months so I'll have plenty of time and it's for a bit of fun for me too.
I might board from time to time just for fun. I'll see how I get on.
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VolklAttivaS5, sorry, didn't make myself clear. An requirement imposed on BASI by the ISIA organisation, rather than a requirement of BASI's Alpine Ski Teacher qualification.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, yeah, knew that it was ISIA imposing it rather than BASI creating it.
You're right, it is a bit of a pain for some having to do the L1 in something else, snowboard or otherwise.
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VolklAttivaS5, rob@rar, It's important for ski schools (on snow) to have versatile instructors, so 2nd discipline makes a difference to the running of schools. Ditto second language (should be 3 IMO). These exams, after all, are aimed at professional qualifications with the idea of a career in the job.
I passed before it was necessary to do 2nd discipline, but have snowboarded on and off for 17 years until I gave it up 2 years ago. I never taught more than beginners first lessons, but do understand a lot of the basic movements - I just hate snowboarding!  Hurts left knee, left hip and back and I thought 17 years was long enough to try to like it!!
As to which discipline to choose, there's no doubt that snowboarding is the one to improve employability. Most ski/snow instructors work far more than single discipline ones. Other choices could be telemark, freestyle or adaptive I think. In none of these do instructors I know work very much, so snowboarding is the way forward.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I'm firmly of the opinion that all slope users should have to try skiing and snowboarding, just to get an understanding of the movements of that discipline - so why on earth should instructors not have to have a better understanding? The problem that I see with snowboarding is that there are a lot of people who can do it, but a very small percentage that do it well. Watching a good snowboarder carve his/her turns is beautiful.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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VolklAttivaS5, Before you go completly to the dark side - have you thought about Telemarking ? You won't get much work from it, but it's near enough to alpine not to be a complete start again, but far enough away to be fun. It'll rev up you alpine skiing too !
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You know it makes sense.
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Had one proper fall when practising the toe edge slide-scratched my forearm on the brushes drawing blood despite wearing long sleeves
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That's not a proper fall from toe edge, that's the one that puts you on your bum and if there's any force makes you smack your head too. Expect a few of these over your next couple of days but good effort for learning on a dry slope, I did and wouldn't recommend it to anyone. Out of interest what standard are you expected to reach?
Welcome to the Darkslide 
P.S. I agree that skiers should give boarding a go and vice versa, if you don't like it then fair enough but it would promote understanding of each others disciplines.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Swirly, Tried it. Went left and right. Didn't like it. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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easiski, yes, you're right about it being important for instructor versatility. I'm glad I have to do a Level 1 in it (eventually) or I probably wouldn't have bothered trying Snowboarding, I might even do a Level 2 later on in Snowboard after my Level 2 Alpine as well if I get on well with the Snowboarding. I know I don't need to for ISIA but thought I might do it just for me. I picked Snowboard because I considered it the be the discipline most in demand after skiing like you say. 
Elizabeth B, I don't think anyone was suggesting instructors shouldn't have to have a second discipline, just that for some, they only ever intend on teaching their main discipline and never anything else so it seems a bit pointless (to them) having to learn something else and get a Level 1 qualification in it to get their ISIA in their main discipline eg skiing.
Personally I'm all for learning something new, as well as it being a mandatory requirement it will be nice to have a change and teach something else perhaps on some days instead of skiing. I can imagine it getting a bit "samey" for me after a while otherwise like with anything so I'm glad I will have the opportunity to teach something else as well.
david@mediacopy, thanks for your info, you're always helpful. I hope to be linking turns on plastic-the bruises and pain will probably be worse on that stuff, although when I go to Tamworth Snowdome again soon it will be good to try it on "snow" I have to admit. I thought I'd nail the technique on a dry slope until I'm making S-shapes confidently and try it on snow then. The dry slope isn't as forgiving as snow as some would say so I'm hoping it will make my technique bullet proof and then on snow it will be easy!
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I learned boarding when my ski training got too intense. With the best will in the world skiing can sometimes get a bit caught up in it's own bottom, so boarding was something I could teach myself (with some instructions downloaded from the Internet) with no pressure and still be on the mountain.
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I know what you mean about that. Last time I skied I felt that I couldn't quite "get it" so to speak, so it will probably do me good to have a short rest from it and do something else for a bit, and then go back to it refreshed instead of getting miffed with myself. It feels like I'm a bit skied out at the mo. I'm talking about Bumps (on skis)! The shallow ones are alright but I'm afraid of the big ones and don't like them. Something I need to sort. I know it is just practice, practice, practice!
With the boarding I'd like to get to a good enough standard to go anywhere on piste, and a bit off piste, but I'm not worried about the park stuff or doing bumps on a board or anything like that. Bumps on a board
ski, I had considered Telemark but I just don't fancy it. As you and others have said Snowboard seems to be the best one to go for for employability and usability.
fatbob, going back to what you said above, if Snowboard is someone's second discipline then they would probably be teaching beginners anyway, and will (currently) have the Level 1 qualification to be able to do so, so they would be well within their rights, capabilities and skill level to be good enough to teach that level boarder, same as a Level 1 Snowboard instructor can teach beginners in a Snowdome/artificial slope within the UK, so the client wouldn't be worse off in that respect.
If an advanced boarder however, went to have lessons on more high end skills stuff for example, then it would be highly likely they'll be put with an ISIA/ISTD instructor whose main discipline is Snowboard anyway so they get the right person for the job so to speak.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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How much did you learn on a dry slope?
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Turning edge to edge using the width of 1 mat and small kickers. The guy's right, on snow you'll find it much easier and a lot less painful, the reason I'm not a big fan of learning on dry slopes is the way I was taught to turn: I was shown to let the board go flat and change edge when it points straight down the hill, on the dry slope friction meant you had to wait a while as it took time for the board to come round, this lead to a tendency to force the back foot out and skid the tail. On snow the board comes round much quicker so learning there should prevent this bad habit. You may have an advantage here coming from technical competence in skiing though. To carve the board you have to finish the turn before the fall line anyway, I'm not sure how easy this is on a dry slope as I haven't been on one since learning the basics but I'd guess it's near impossible for a beginner!
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I suspect the Snowboard L1 is equally as tricky for your everyday recreational boarder to pass it
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I'd hope so given the competence of most recreational borders*! The level seems quite ambiguous, 16 weeks should be enough experience for most boarders to reach that standard (unless they just live in the park) although I imagine they could quite easily be found lacking technically i.e. rhythmical small radius turns down the fall line pretty easy, keeping the board on one edge the whole time while doing that is nowhere near as easy.
* I class myself here too mainly though laziness  especially on piste.
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The main problem with snowboarding on a dryslope besides the obvious pain related ones is that the drag of the slope can foster poor technique IMO especially in relation to kicking the back leg round to complete the turn.
That said if you learn to link proper turns on dryslope real snow is a doddle - I was riding most marked runs on the mountain in my first full week on snow.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Swirly, it will be interesting to see how this guy teaches me to do turns then in due course. Once I can turn rythmically from the top of the dry slope then I'm off! I hate the stuff personally, it's dirty and hurts a lot when you do fall down on it. Re the L1, the 16 weeks is only there as a guide and not set in stone, it's the rythmic turns on a red run close to the fall line standard that they want, when I did my L1 last month I had only skied 10 weeks but was easily the standard they wanted, probably because I was a good skier for the time I had been skiing. I'd done a few BASI courses this last season before taking my L1 so that put me in good stead.
Once I've got the turns sorted on a board then I'm off to visit a friend near you (ish) at the end of August so I might call by Chill Factore that weekend and have a try at it on "snow". You can come and inspect me if you like. Did you used to ski and leave skiing for snowboarding? Why?
fatbob, the chap said if you can learn turns properly on a dry slope using pressure all the time rather than swinging/forcing/kicking the board round then you're all set for heaven on snow he said. I hope to be able to ride most runs as you say when I go to Tignes in December. I've got a week of boarding then a ski course so that will be nice to have a bit of variation.
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Swirly, yeah, heard that about the powder, it's what boards are meant to do! Can't wait to try it on snow I have to admit 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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VolklAttivaS5, I know that problem.... I could turn heel to toe (we're talking nursery slopes here....) but not toe to heel. One of my problems was that I'd taken the "keep the weight on the front foot" mantra too literally so I was picking up too much speed, then bailing out. I'm not sure I quite understand what you mean about doing it on the flat, and I am regular, which also complicates the explanations. But I was completely failing to steer round to get the heel edge of the back (right) foot biting into the slope and thus slowing me down. I am a total idiot on a snowboard, and no doubt a proper boarder will be along before long, but I found the Neil McNab book/DVD very useful, and more helpful than a snowboard lesson with a Frenchman who didn't speak much English and was really a skier (and is a great ski instructor).
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_ss_w_h_/202-6957779-8603065?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=snowboard+neil&x=0&y=0&tag=amz07b-21
all the video demos are goofy - so you will probably get your head round it easier than I did. Thinking about steering using the 4 corners of the board was extremely helpful. And it's cheap. Well done for learning on Dendix; character building. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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pam w, I mean the board is on the flat facing down the hill before you start, then you shuffle forward a bit to get going and then put the front toe edge on. What I meant was, the board has to be on the flat facing downhill to start the shuffling forwards bit.
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One of my problems was that I'd taken the "keep the weight on the front foot" mantra too literally so I was picking up too much speed, then bailing out.
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Thats' exactly what I'm doing! Falling down sort of on purpose when it gets too much.
Cheers for the link, I'll have a look in a min and report back.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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VolklAttivaS5,
Neil McNab is pretty good on toe/heal fore/aft pressure. I'd say think of weight balanced about 70/30 in favour of front foot (in order to get things moving on a dry slope and concentrate your steering centre of gravity (in your own mind) in your front knee- one metaphor is to thing of a headlight in your front knee.
Pushing on to your right toes will turn you left and when that is under control (and you have reasonable speed) think about rocking gently onto your right heal to initiate the turn.
Falling down before the turn sounds like you are backseating in order to gain some speed.
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Falling down before the turn sounds like you are backseating in order to gain some speed.
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When I kept falling it was always after the turn - as I hurtled (or so it seemed to me....) out of control on my heel edge!
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You know it makes sense.
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fatbob,
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Pushing on to your right toes will turn you left and when that is under control (and you have reasonable speed) think about rocking gently onto your right heal to initiate the turn.
Falling down before the turn sounds like you are backseating in order to gain some speed.
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Heel? He didn't say anything about that yet.He said once pressure on right toes (front) and can feel it bite then put pressure on left toes to right myself. Perhaps the next bit is to put the pressure on the left (back foot) heel side then to initiate the turn?
I'm not trying to gain speed it just happens because I've got too much pressure on the front foot and am afraid to put the pressure on the back foot.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Maybe I'm missing the point - I thought you were trying to do a toe to heel turn i.e. a right hand turn for a goofy rider.
Is the bit you are struggling with getting from the fall line to toe side in the first place i.e. a traverse left?
Maybe if you think about holding 30% of you weight back for your back foot then things don't get out of control.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| fatbob wrote: |
Maybe I'm missing the point - I thought you were trying to do a toe to heel turn i.e. a right hand turn for a goofy rider.
Is the bit you are struggling with getting from the fall line to toe side in the first place i.e. a traverse left?
Maybe if you think about holding 30% of you weight back for your back foot then things don't get out of control. |
I am I think! I start with the board and my right foot facing down the hill, I put pressure on my front (right) foot and I start going to my right (the left looking down the slope down the fall line) but before I can put weight on my back foot toe to right myself before changing to my back foot heel edge (to go to my left and to the right looking down the fall line) I pick up too much speed and crash. Does this sound right to you?
Are you goofy? Can you tell me step by step what you do on a toe to heel turn? I'm confused now. That Dendex sure is rough. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Just had a look at Becci Malthouse's Learning to Snowboard on Ski TV and it looks like the instructor was trying to get me to do "Garland Swings" today, practising the beginning and end of the turn, doing a series of Falling Leaves without changing the edge. What she was doing on her demo looked like what I was meant to be doing today.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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VolklAttivaS5, dunno if it's any use to you, or if it's good technique, but my instructor suggested i hold out my front hand (whether goofy or regular) so i could get used to the idea of where i should put the pressure. after a while, cos you've started concentrating on watching your hand, the pressure rolling you need to do comes naturally. i found that if i concentrated on what i had to do too much/over analysed the movements required, i fell over much more. it'll come naturally to your body, cos you've already taught it the basics of how to move if your toe/heelside is down. hope it helps cos it certainly helped me!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Lizzard,  where's the quote above from? Can't see it? If you mean my post earlier about being on the "flat" first then I mean the intermittent platforms you get on dry ski slopes that you don't find in resort (not very often anyway).
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sun 13-07-08 22:34; edited 1 time in total
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I've been reading this thread, as a punter for ski lessons, with interest - I had no comprehension before that instructors of a certain level required more than one discipline - I just thought that those that taught both did so because they enjoyed both and chose to do so - not because they were required to. OK, I get the argument about employability, having an appreciation for another set of skills and giving ski schools a wider selection in who teaches what, where and when, but if I had the choice I think I'd want lessons in a discipline that was an instructors first choice not one they felt that they had been obliged to learn. OK, so they might thoroughly enjoy more than one discipline in the finish which would be fine for all concerned, but if they never took to a second discipline like a duck to water and only got good enough to meet an arbitary score for an examining board to get to the next level of qualification in their 'first' discipline under their belt then it sounds like a waste of time to me, as I said I think I'd want lessons from someone truely enjoying the teaching of their first discipline of choice.
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Megamum, I see what you mean but the thing is if Snowboarding say is an ISTD's (highest level sort of BASI instructor called International Ski Teacher's Diploma) they are only likely to be teaching people of a beginner standard anyway, like the stuff I've been learning the last couple of times, really simple stuff.
For that sort of level they (your ISTD's and ISIA's) would be more than qualified and skilled to teach, plus they would (probably) be a much better boarder (technically) than your usual Joe Bloggs so it's fine. To be fair as well, most folk who reach that kind of level in the BASI system (at ISTD we're talking elite here) enjoy snowsports full stop regardless of the discipline, albeit they may have a fave understandably.
Also a BASI Level 1 qualification in the second discipline is the minimum acceptable and they would have to be very good at boarding (and therefore must enjoy it too presumably to get to that standard) to get the Level 1 anyhow. The Level 1 Alpine (Ski) qualification I did last month certainly wasn't a piece of cake despite being (dare I say it) a good skier capable of skiing pretty much anything going on a mountain (albeit miles away from where I want to be, but I will get there-that's why I'm doing this partly)
For higher end lessons, you would be put with someone with that discipline as their first discipline more than likely. That's my understanding of it anyway, I may be wrong as haven't got there (yet).
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sun 13-07-08 22:42; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| pam w wrote: |
VolklAttivaS5, I'm confused. I'm also not too sure why you start with your board facing straight down the hill. I always like to start with my board across the hill, but perhaps that's just me.
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Perhaps the next bit is to put the pressure on the left (back foot) heel side then to initiate the turn?
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I would have thought that you initiate the turn with your front foot, shifting the weight from the front of your leading (right) foot onto the heel of the same foot, to get the edge changed. Followed fairly smartly by the heel of your back foot (which was the crucial step which was eluding me at one point) to control your speed. If your instructor hasn't mentioned heels it doesn't sound as though you were actually doing toe to heelside turns at all; hence the confusion! If you're doing garlands the board stays on the same edge.
Megamum. Can you see now how good this is for instructors; to experience that combination of fear, frustration and confusion that their future pupils will be feeling. |
Hmmmm. Well he referred to them as "toe to heel turns". But, I'm thinking they are toe to toe Garland Swings meself, because so far I'm staying on the same edge.
I'll explain about the starting with the board facing down the hill. I'm on a flat plateau thing right-a platform where the dry slope is absolutely level before the "hill" starts. He says point your board down the hill. I do. He says then roll your front foot knee towards the front of the board, and then forwards onto your front foot toes. Then he says when you feel your front toes are biting, then neutralise yourself by rolling your back foot knee forward so that your weight is then on your back foot toes. Then I am facing up the slope with my board across the fall line. What happens next I don't know because I've crashed by then. Perhaps the next thing is to put my weight onto my back foot heel to come around? Oh pamw I'm gonna have to get him to explain it to me again what he is actually looking for.
I think he might be a bit lazy because I have to prompt him to give me a demo a lot, if he had his way he wouldn't demo anything I don't think.
I will have it nailed soon enough!! The thing is, when you've been on these instructor courses and think about skiing technically then you start to think too much about what you're trying to do on a board an' all instead of not thinking about it and just doing it!
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FAQ
) over at Pontypool and got on pretty well. After an hour I had nailed sliding down on both the toe and heel sides, and starting the pressure on one foot to start a turn and end up with the front foot leading down the fall line.
