 Poster: A snowHead
|
what would you say should be a "normal" stance width? I know it varies as you ski and is dependent on what you are trying to achieve; a narrower stance will be more agile and a wider stance more stable.
I do hear a lot of instructors say that feet should be a "shoulder width" apart. I think that is too wide and that they should "typically" be the width of the hip joint which IMO will align the legs better and give a good strong base.
discuss.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Hip width for me as a "home position". Slightly narrower in powder and bumps, slightly wider when hitting high speed GS type turns and perhaps when on very steep terrain.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
skimottaret, I don't think I have heard anyone suggest "shoulder width".
Hip width is usually too wide for women IMO.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
depend on the person, but i would start at the width of the ASIS [aterior superior illiac spines ] [or the pointy bits at the top/front of the pelvis]
imagine being picked up under the arms and where would your legs hang, this is the starting point, but only that, as you manage pressure throughout the turning arc you also manage the width of the stance either wider than or narrower than the starting poition.
there are also factors such as pelvic tilt , pelvic rotation and other genetic weaknesses which can affect the starting position
rjs, i think the term hip width is often mis construed, think in terms of illiac crests and this is a much truer position
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Quote: |
imagine being picked up under the arms and where would your legs hang
|
that is a great way of explaining it..
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| skimottaret wrote: |
| Quote: |
imagine being picked up under the arms and where would your legs hang
|
that is a great way of explaining it.. |
What do you think BASI's child protection lady would say if you did practical demonstrations of this on the snow? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
That i should keep my armpit fetish at home under wraps 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Why is there such an obsession with width of stance?
Everyone should adapt to their best performing width.
The width should/will vary depending on your turn shape, speed of travel and of course your ASIS width.
At the maximum load part of a turn, shoulder width is too narrow for some travelling around a gate in some gate speeds! G.S. Super G and Downhill for example.
And of course, due to changing forces from turn entry to departure, width also changes from entry to exit.
Trying to mainain a fixed width through a turn will only produce a 'blockage' and greatly reduce any flow and balance within a turn.
Marion, the child protection specialist/lass, would be okay with that by the way!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Quote: |
Marion, the child protection specialist/lass, would be okay with that by the way!
|
so long as they were fully clothed and there was more than 1 adult present
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Not Normal, agree with all of that and you are correct that you should adapt as for any body mechanic issue. but lets say you are on a BASI L1 course and asked to demo straight glides for the first time, wouldn't the trainer talk about stance width and get the students opinion on what is optimal?
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
Yes.....
There will be different answers too.
Even with students feet under the body somewhere, some may feel more comfortable with feet at shoulder width rather than hips (asis) due to equipment set up.
Most people prefer a slightly wider than hip position due to most boots being over canted at the cuff.
Making students stand on the outside of their boots if their feet were under their asis's.
This is when a the bodies propreoception steps in and allows the feet to go wider on the move.
Ask student to try at least 5 different stance widths changing by no more than a few inches each time, to fully discover their stance width for their set up.
(Of course ths will change in the next pair of rental boots!!)
This maybe not what is visually generally excepted. However it's where the client feels most balanced.
Here's problem number one for the learner. Bad equipment set up will reduce their learning speed and experience.
You will, and I have proof, be a better skier investing in correct equipment set up than training for 2 weeks on snow.
This is obviously far cheaper than 2 weeks on snow and long term far more effective.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
Not Normal,
| Quote: |
Ask student to try at least 5 different stance widths changing by no more than a few inches each time, to fully discover their stance width for their set up.
|
i think we all should get one of your balancer jobbies and bring it along when delivering lesssons
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
skimottaret, i don't think it is a case of having a machine to measure stance width, more finding what feels most dynamic and best to the individual there is along debate going on over at epic right now about giving instructors the tools with which to recognise balance /stance/alignment problems and msake recomendations to the client about where they cna go to get them sorted
IMO if the instructor can recognise that there is a stance problem of some description then they can refer the client to the alignent/boot guy to get it sorted the client then has a better learning experience
the problem as i see it is there are too many instructors out there who have got themselves a qualification becauses they can ski well and teach froma lesson plan but they have no understanding of how the biomechanics of skiing actually happens, how a ski boot fits, what footbed is and what it feels like to be out of alignment. I actually think that alignment can help mid level skiers more than higher performance skiers as the higher performance skier has learnt to adapt to their mis alignment better than the mid level skier
you spend a lot of money on a holiday so why not have the best set up that is available to get the best from the money you are spending 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
skimottaret, i am [think i said this somewhere else], trying to get a program set up with differnt set ups on identicla skis so you can feel the differences and see how they look
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
Depends what you're skiing at the time, and how you're trying to ski it..
Narrow for agility, wider for stability.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
For some reason I've been watching people walk recently - and noticing how wide some people's "natural" gait seems to be - if you drew a line along the pavement, mid-way under their body, their feet would be quite wide of it; they sort of roll from side to side like Popeye the Sailor Man. Others have their feet much nearer the centre line and pointed forward. And what about all those very pointed-out feet? I've done a highly unscientific observation which suggests that this is much more common amongst men, even young ones who look quite agile, than amongst women. Also some amazingly bandy walks - again, much more common amongst young men; is it a "look at me I'm a big gorilla dragging my knuckles" cultural thing, rather than just their biomechanics? "Gait as a cultural construct: discuss"
Presumably stance width will differ a lot - my husband cannot, simply cannot, stand with his skis close together and flat on the ground. When we were messing about going up drag lifts in different stances he tried a narrow stance and just fell over. I think he is sub-consciously adapting his stance all the time to try to get his leg to turn in the hip joint when he is skiing (and to compensate for the fact that one turns through a much greater angle than the other). And yes, we are planning another visit to CEM to try to sort this out.... 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| pam w wrote: |
| For some reason I've been watching people walk recently - and noticing how wide some people's "natural" gait seems to be - if you drew a line along the pavement, mid-way under their body, their feet would be quite wide of it; they sort of roll from side to side like Popeye the Sailor Man. Others have their feet much nearer the centre line and pointed forward. |
Have you noticed the silly little slip of the heel inwards (medially) as the other foot is set down yet?
| Quote: |
And what about all those very pointed-out feet? I've done a highly unscientific observation which suggests that this is much more common amongst men, even young ones who look quite agile, than amongst women. Also some amazingly bandy walks - again, much more common amongst young men; is it a "look at me I'm a big gorilla dragging my knuckles" cultural thing, rather than just their biomechanics? "Gait as a cultural construct: discuss"
|
Amongst the Koreans here, wide + forward is the norm for manly men, to the point of actual badgering of boys (by mothers) starting at age 10-ish.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Interesting...after three years of instructors telling me to get my feet further apart, I've now had three weeks of the coach working on me to get my feet closer together. While I'm very comfortable with a very narrow stance for moguls and striaght runs (verticales etc) I guess I've generally skied at about shoulder width for wider turns. Possibly it's a a side-effect of group lessons, but no instructor has told me to get my feet closer together, but this is now the second or third high-end race coach to work on a narrower stance for me. Different perspective? Certainly less stable and I have to be much more sensitive to lateral balance (I've taken a couple of tumbles overdoing it when going for high edge angles), but there's a much better response from the skis when I get it right.
CEM I may need another visit to you sometime. Last time I was up you seemed pretty happy on a brief check of my boot canting, but I still have my suspiscions things aren't quite right. Maybe not sensible to fiddle until the race season is over though?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
GrahamN, I'm in the same boat with the shoulder width stance, this was pointed out to me in my last coaching sesssion as it was restricting my short radius turns. I find it very dificult to go narrower but I can certainly see the improvement. I guess this is something for me to work on in the occasssional visit to snowdomes over the summer.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| pam w wrote: |
| For some reason I've been watching people walk recently - and noticing how wide some people's "natural" gait seems to be - if you drew a line along the pavement, mid-way under their body, their feet would be quite wide of it; they sort of roll from side to side like Popeye the Sailor Man. Others have their feet much nearer the centre line and pointed forward. And what about all those very pointed-out feet? I've done a highly unscientific observation which suggests that this is much more common amongst men, even young ones who look quite agile, than amongst women. Also some amazingly bandy walks - again, much more common amongst young men; is it a "look at me I'm a big gorilla dragging my knuckles" cultural thing, rather than just their biomechanics? "Gait as a cultural construct: discuss" |
there are several studies about racial /cultural differences in gait a lot of the results cited differences in race and the way people are brought up in the modern world as reasons for more unusual gait, I am sure there is some amount of the posturing you talk about amongst young males...ladies do you find it atractive???
so why do we see that wider stance with abducted feet, i beleive that it is a combination of the poor quality footwear on the market and the biomechanics of the foot...the foot was designed to do 2 things..
1 adapt to the terrain that we walk on and 2 to propel us forward as we walk or run
the major problem is that for the past 100and something years we have all been adapting to the flat surfaces that we live on, we wear footwear which is flat inside we walk and run on concrete,tarmac, wooden floors etc etc, all uniform in one single plane...the foot was designed to pronate to adapt to the different surfaces we came across hundreds of years ago...people walked barefoot and over rough uneven terrain, this kept the muscles of the foot supple yet strong and the foot functioned as it was designed. now adays we just allow this adaption to take place but we are adapting to flat surfaces...with pronation [the collapsing adapting phase of gait] the foot goes through 3 destinct motions on 3 planes..... eversion -turning away from the midline in the frontal plane, dorsiflexion - toes moving toward the ankle in the sagital plane and most noticable of the three motions is ABduction the rotation of the foot away from the mid line in the transverse or coronal plane..... as the foot adapts to the flat surfaces the muscles become less able to control this adaption and keep adapting until the flat surface is found, it is this weakness, along with other muscle imbalances from the pelvis down the way [weak gluteal muscles, abductors, tight hip flexors hamstrings ,calves etc etc] which cause the externally rotated feet that are more and more common these days
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CEM, interesting. So, are you a fan of MTB shoes? They were all over the place when I was in Brighton a couple of days ago.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
not really, some people love them some hate them, i have seen a few people have knee or back problems because of the different posture when you wear them, others swear by them, but they are like most other footwear flat inside...and the makes of MBT do not recomend the use of orthotic inserts in them
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| skimottaret wrote: |
| Quote: |
imagine being picked up under the arms and where would your legs hang
|
that is a great way of explaining it.. |
thank you kind sir 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
