 Poster: A snowHead
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I'd like to know what people's views are of how the 'battle' between BASI Level 1 and SSE/SSS ASSIs is shaping up because I've got the impression the impetus and buzz is with BASI. I've also been told that some people in BASI view it as only a matter of time before the opposition "implode" so there seems to be a high level of confidence in BASI too.
Personally I'm at a slope that's very much SSE oriented but I have to say I'm more inclined towards BASI and will move in that direction when opportunities present themselves.
In order to get a rough idea of which slopes are in which camp I did a quick analysis of where the various organisations are holding courses and there are some surprising overlaps with both SSE and BASI offering courses at Manchester's Chill Factore - all the odder since this dome is so close to BASI but then some SSE affiliated slopes run BASI courses too so it works both ways.
I'd also note that whilst SSE/SSS are more or less exclusively weighted towards dry slopes BASI seems to be about equal in both but in terms of sheer numbers of courses BASI would appear to be running the lions share.
Anyway, here's the list I drew up from what's currently listed on the various websites with additional notes on their affiliation if I know it:
BASI Level 1 Courses:
1. Alpine Snowsports Aldershot (BASI Centre of excellence and associate member of Snowsport England)
2. Bearsden
3. Castelford XSCAPE
4. Chillfactore Manchester (BASI Centre of Excellence)
5. Firpark Ski Centre
6. Glasgow Ski Centre
7. Hillend Ski Centre, Edinburgh
8. SNO!Zone Xscape Milton Keynes
9. SNO!zone Xscape Braehead
10. Tamworth Snowdome
Snowsport England Instructor Courses:
1. Chill Factore, Manchester (BASI Centre of Excellence!)
2. Gloucester (Snowsport England)
3. Rossendale
4. Gosling
5. Pendle
6. Kendal (Snowsport England)
7. Suffolk
8. Bromley
9. Swadlincote, Derbyshire
10. Sunderland
Snowsport Scotland Instructor Courses:
1. Glasgow Ski & Snowboard Centre
2. Midlothian Snowsports Centre (Hillend, Edinburgh)
3. Halifax Ski & Snowboard Centre
4. SNO!zone Xscape Braehead
Any comments or thoughts?
Anyone know of any other slopes that are affiliated one or both ways at the moment?
Any predictions as to who will collapse first and what'll happen over the next year or so?
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 12-06-08 21:24; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I think Hemel will only offer BASI when it re-opens as a snowdome.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Dont know about who is winning but both are losing globally as it will affect the image of both awards as all this fuss grows.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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roga, There are SSE instructor courses at Castleford this summer.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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There are SSE courses at Norfolk who are talking to both BASI and SSE
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I thought that the deal between the Home Nations was that SSS would only operate and run courses in Scotland, and likewise SSE in England, SSW in Wales, etc.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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roga, Castleford isn't listed on the SSE website, the CI and ASSI courses have been booked by Lions Ski Club for our members, I'm sure we are not the only club doing this.
The real test will be the number of people who have attended courses, not the number of courses on the calendar.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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roga,
| Quote: |
rob@rar, that's my impression too - Spyderman? |
Hemel has been offering BASI L1 courses only, since the launch of the qualification. Previous to that it was SSS ASSI, there hasn't been a SSE ASSI course there for years, although up to 2 years ago a SSE CI course was offered during the Summer, with a view to then covert and progress to take SSS ASSI.
Several CI to BASI L1 courses were ran before the Dendix Slope closed.
Hemel will only offer BASI L1 when the Snow Centre opens and accept BASI L1/ASSI/CSIA as a minimum standard, CI will no longer be accepted.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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it seems to me that BASI and SSS are trying to work together but cooperation between SSE and BASI has broken down and they are going their own ways.
One thing not mentioned but was discussed on another thread http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=30096&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 is the open warfare on coaching courses...
BASI have changed their coaching certification levels and are now offering a L1 which is in direct competition with the SSE artificial coach course and will be run in the snowdomes. Dates for these new courses are coming out in the next week or so. The home nations announced that they were going to collaborate and develop a UK wide coaching certification offering training at all levels. The dates for these course were supposed to be out last month but nothing as of yet...
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skimottaret, Dates for the new coaching courses are now available for the summer (Hintertux and MK) on the BASI website.
Have you heard if the full course directory is ready yet? Worth an email to Sean?
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You know it makes sense.
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rob@rar, well spotted on the coaching dates, I heard from Izzy M a couple days ago that the 2 tech dates have been agreed they are just sorting out which trainers are available before putting up the courses. should be pretty soon...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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roga, It boils down to money. BASI have the resources to develop their coaching scheme. SSE do not.
I read on another thread that SSE coaching course should be ready in a few weeks time. I doubt this - last I heard they hadn't even started on the syllabus and were asking for help.
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Poster: A snowHead
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£ 270 pretty expensive for 3 day course I thought. I can't find any content about the course on the BASI website either, just dates.
I still want to do it though, but probably wait until Hemel is open and do it there.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Spyderman, I have some printed info on the courses. The first course will be really good for ski instructors looking to develop understanding of high performance skiing. The ski level is pitched at the SSE Alpine development coach (you need to be able to carve and influence turn shape). The BASI ADC II (second level course) is more race training specific. also you will get the CSCF EL coaching certificate as part of the course.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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gilleski, any thoughts on the merits of doing ADC 1 at Milton Keynes compared to doing it in Hintertux?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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gilleski, Any chance of emailing them to me please. I want to move things along and the ADC1 seems perfect for what I do. I don't have any interest in Race Training since my accident.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rjs wrote: |
The real test will be the number of people who have attended courses, not the number of courses on the calendar. |
I agree with that and so far the chill factor L1 courses are pretty much full up and the one they did at MK last month was oversubscribed.. I think the snowdome based courses will be very popular
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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skimottaret, I just ran a level 1 at Tamworth last week, that was full and along side me we had a BASI SB level 1 also full. Next week we have a tutor training all week at Chill.
Spyderman, Dont have anything to email, but I do have a paper copy. Can give it to P and K or if your passing drop in? Think it would be a great course for instructors like you.
rob@rar, The L1 and L2 together make up the ISIA component. However you can take L1 as a stand alone qualification. Running it in the UK keeps the costs down and will hopefully get more people involved.
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| Spyderman wrote: |
| gilleski, Any chance of emailing them to me please. I want to move things along and the ADC1 seems perfect for what I do. I don't have any interest in Race Training since my accident. |
blimey I didn;t realise that having the kids was that trumatic for you 
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gilleski, how does this course stack up against the SSE coaches certificate?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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gilleski, Sorry to pester you but we were told that the BASI coach courses got you dual certified with the CSCF. do you need L1 and L2 get you Canadian EL status or will just the L1 do it? I had a guy asking me about this during the week and is trying to decide whether to go canadian or BASI.
Would you know what BASI level would qualify for the second level (DL) within the CSCF?
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| rjs wrote: |
| The real test will be the number of people who have attended courses, not the number of courses on the calendar. |
Totally agreed and it looks as if the BASI courses are well attended but the number of centres around the country offering courses of one type or another is another useful indicator in as far as a good spread makes courses easier to access for people and shows which of the two slopes are tending towards.
I get the impression that numbers on SSE courses are a bit of a mystery so it's difficulty to gauge one against the other. However, we seem to have a lot of people here who are choosing the BASI route which gives me the impression that BASI may be the more popular route now, although I should be wary about that in as far as Snowheads might have more people inclined towards BASI than the wider target market does.
| skimottaret wrote: |
| it seems to me that BASI and SSS are trying to work together but cooperation between SSE and BASI has broken down and they are going their own ways. |
Well SSS did historically have a better relationship with BASI as I understand it and they did initially go in with BASI on the Level 1 and then made the decision to pull out. Personally I think whatever the reasons they gave the real one was monetary when they realised their revenue from ASSIs was drying up fast.
An added factor IMHO was SSE's decision not to accept the new system which I'd guess put further pressure on SSS to withdraw. My strong impression is that SSE never intended to accept and were playing along looking for an excuse to walk away - as well as vested interests there's old history and bad blood in there that I can't go into but there are people at the top of SSE at the moment who as I understand it will never accept any accommodation with BASI no matter how good the reasons to do so are.
Yes, the gloves have come off on this one and IMHO it's another sign that BASI and SSE are now openly trying to knock chunks out of each other.
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| BASI have changed their coaching certification levels and are now offering a L1 which is in direct competition with the SSE artificial coach course and will be run in the snowdomes. Dates for these new courses are coming out in the next week or so. The home nations announced that they were going to collaborate and develop a UK wide coaching certification offering training at all levels. The dates for these course were supposed to be out last month but nothing as of yet... |
I'm unclear how the coaching system works and has worked, I'm presuming it's a scheme for coaching racers in clubs etc.? This being the case I think it'll be a harder nut for BASI to crack than instructing, which logically should be run by the UK wide ski instructing association. In contrast SSE have their main raison d'etre when it comes to racers and coaching and are very well established in clubs up and down the country, certainly on dry slopes, perhaps this is why BASI are only offering their course in the domes? Notwithstanding this there is a good argument for having a coaching award as part of the BASI system, it's a logical step for some BASI qualified instructors wishing to do some coaching as well. The direct "open warfare on coaching courses" you describe though is, from what I can see, a direct product, and escalation, of the fall out and subsequent competition over dry/artificial slope instructor training - correct me if I'm speaking cobblers though 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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skimottaret, the L1 course has the dual CSCF certificate (Entry level) I think the L2 course would be recognised as a CSCF level 2, but I am unsure. The Level 1 has been agreed as a dual qualification.
elbrus, In skiing level terms about the same. The SSE ADC is a two week course, BASI is only 3 days but you would be expected to arrive on the course at the skiing level ,This is something that generaly didnt happen with the SSE course as many people are still trying to pass it 3 years after starting it ( technical resits). This is also common with Canadian courses (CSIA), you are expected to arrive having had some prior training.
The course will not attract the IVSI stamp as SSE are the UK member. CSCF are also not members of IVSI yet have one of the best coaching systems in the world. One questions the value of IVSI?
roga, The BASI coaching scheme is alligned with the CSCF which is very credible world wide. The trainers for this course are former Olympic and national team skiers. This could build the courses credibility within the UK. I know of a few clubs that are now looking to move from SSE to BASI.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Here we go, hot off the presses.
More info and details on the website, link at the end of the press release below.
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PRESS RELEASE
17 June 2008
Home Nations Governing Bodies for Snowsports launch new, unified qualifications pathway
The governing bodies for snowsports in Scotland, England and Wales have today launched their unified qualifications pathway covering coaching, leading and instructing awards (in all snowsports disciplines). UK Snowsports will replace all existing, and currently disparate, qualifications by December 2008.
The UK Snowsports pathway has been developed using the principles of the UK Coaching Certificate (UKCC). Accreditation by UKCC is a longer term aim of UK Snowsports. Its raison d’être is to meet the needs of snowsports clubs and their members, existing and potential instructors, tutors, coaches and leaders as well as ski centres. As a guide, potential trainees should regard UK Snowsports as the UK awarding body for coaches, leaders and instructors who either specialise in race coaching, or who will work outside of the mountain ski school environment.
The combined membership of UK Snowsports is currently more than 3,000. These members comprise coaches, instructors and leaders across all snowsports disciplines.
Oliver Jones, chairman of Snowsport GB (the British Ski & Snowboard Federation) that trains and manages the British snowsports teams of elite athletes such as Finlay Mickel, Lesley McKenna and Chemmy Alcott, commenting on the launch says: "Snowsport GB is pleased to support the launch of this unified pathway which undoubtedly fills a gap in the market originally occupied by a wide range of Home Nations Governing Body courses which had no clear or consistent development pathway."
Mark Simmers, chief executive of Snowsport GB also offers his support: "I am delighted to see the Home Nations working together to develop a unified approach to this area of the sport. It now presents GB athletes with a viable option for their progression into coaching, and provides more clarity and consistency in the development of British coaches."
Current members of individual Home Nations Governing Bodies registration schemes will remain registered with their preferred body. Existing qualifications are also recognised and will be ‘converted’ to the UK Snowsports levels at annual re-registration. Home Nations re-registration dates are as follows: Scotland: 1 October; England and Wales: 1 January 2009. NB: In converting qualifications, coaches, leaders and instructors will all have the same scope of operation. No-one will be ‘worse off’.
Ends
For further information, please contact:
Tim Fawke at tim@snowsportengland.org.uk or go to the Snowsport England website:
http://www.snowsportengland.org.uk/uk_snowsports-245.html
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It seems that round two of the 'battle' has commenced!
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You know it makes sense.
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Snowsports GB are supporting both routes, but as I understand it are only actively involved in the development of BASI's qualification.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Politics aside, it's a real pity there's two coaching providers. It's confusing and British skiing is too small for two competing qualifications in my view. Joe consumer and our foreign friends may well think we're a right bunch of in- fighting wallies not to get organised and unite our ideas and energies behind one system...
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Poster: A snowHead
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Jonnie, Fair point, there are a lot of people who argue we dont want one party with a stranglehold on instructor or coaching training in the UK but look to the countries with much more skiiing terrain.. Canada, Austria, France etc I beleive (but could be wrong ) they have singular pathways..
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| Jonnie, Fair point, there are a lot of people who argue we dont want one party with a stranglehold on instructor or coaching training in the UK but look to the countries with much more skiiing terrain.. Canada, Austria, France etc I beleive (but could be wrong ) they have singular pathways.. |
Canada has a seperate, but related instructor and coach pathways. CSIA and CSCF.
They share costs, CSCF broadly does the more innovation technical development and high performance stuff and then works with CSIA to incorporate it when established into their courses. CSIA concentrate on consistent delivery of courses that slowly develop and are very good at guest services, class management etc stuff. CSIA are now getting quite adept at taking the "complex" research and publications from the CSCF and breaking it down into easier to understand and therefore teach elements for their courses.
I thought BASI/HNGB merge would (could?) have happened, and basically the CI/BASI intro would have become the same thing, and Uk based. had a ASSI/old BASI 2 (limited) that could have been taught in uk and then upgraded with the alpine courses to get ISIA. Then split for HNGB (even if taking the modern CSCF as a base just as the old one was 8 years ago) to run coaching with national team coaches and interface from level 2 and up coach and BASI for the ISTD.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The great BASI/HNGB's divide dates right back to the sixties when there were moves to combine efforts but no one could see eye to eye back then and it seems the situation has never got any better. Its a long time since I was teaching full time on snow (more than 15yrs) but at that time Austria and France (the countries where I worked) both saw BASI as the professional body and the HNGB's as playing around on plastic slopes with the odd trip to the mountains.
I am not surprised, the the standard of skiers that were allowed to instruct on many plastic slopes was quite dire (may have changed now). As an example the local slope to me, for a number of years, has not had any full time instructors that could actually ski their bumps run without looking like a beginner . When I left the snow full time and did some work on plastic I could not believe how poor the skiing and instruction was from many ASSI's and Club Instructors. It's no wonder that so many British skiers that take lessons on plastic then have real problems in the mountains.
To me its not who is winning the fight but what audience each will appeal to. Those wanting to make a full time career in the mountains would I assume gravitate to BASI, those doing it in their spare time would more than likely gravitate towards the HNGB's.
However I know that many who grew up on the plastic, so to speak, still favour the APC courses run by the HNGB's. I think having had contact with SSE/S/W for a number of years they feel its a natural progression.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
Canada has a separate, but related instructor and coach pathways. CSIA and CSCF
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yes, but do they have two separate organisations offering race coaching and instructor training No and that was what i was trying to get a across in my poorly worded comments.
again i could be wrong but does france or austria or any other country have dual competing organisations that provide training and certification? It is uniquely British disease having numerous quango's/unions/professional bodies all overlapping and arguing with each other instead of providing a unified service to the public and their members.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skimottaret, i agree no other nation is dumb enough to offer competing courses. suppliers yes, but courses no.
it is not as if the uk snowsports is that big in any case
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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just got a mail from SSE and it got me thinking about how they are doing in terms of their new pathway and courses.
The BASI coaching and L1 courses in the domes seem to be pretty much full up and they have laid on additional coaching courses.
Has SSE run any/many coaching courses or are they as suspected dying on the vine....
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skimottaret, I'm trying to organize a L2 Performance Coach course at Castleford.
I would be interested to know how many people other than yourself have done a BASI coaching course then actually made use of it.
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rjs, good on you, i really do hope you can get enough interested and you manage to run one, it may be tough indoors though... I just make the point the the BASI courses seem to be popular, not necessarily better. The SSE offerings seem to be dwindling and are now focusing on leadership courses... after all the big noises about the new UK snowsports pathway and course offerings not much has actually happened...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimottaret, The L2 course is only supposed to be run in the UK just like the BASI L1 coach. We have enough club members to make it happen, we just need a date and a trainer.
When you take out the people who need a coaching qualification to tick a box for ISIA how many courses need to be run per year, I suspect not many.
SSS have two L3 courses planned for December though they are still called APC1.
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| Quote: |
When you take out the people who need a coaching qualification to tick a box for ISIA how many courses need to be run per year, I suspect not many.
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partially agree with you there, but RG for instance was really promoting the BASI L1 course with Xscape parents/racers and i know at least three (plus one current coach) who did it and passed, they are all involved with the club at various levels but what they do with it remains to be seen. so it isnt just ISIA candidates
didnt know the SSE L2 was meant as a UK course, i have to admit to still being confused on the various pathways for SSE or UK sports. the instructor and coach pathways sound to intermingle... The old money APC1 is a L3? that sounds about right i am guessing the APC2 would be the top L4 then.. I am also kinda unclear on the BASI L3 as it seems targetted at the APC2 type of level...
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FAQ
