Swirly, can't remember who suggested it to me and I haven't tried it! so maybe not such a good recommendation. maybe something to try with a bit of sweet talking at a quiet time
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:
I don't see a problem with being off piste on a glacier without a guide, the issue is being there without the kit/knowledge
I would agree, but the original point of thread was people without the kit/knowledge skiing on high mountain glaciers, even if they are competent skiers. Also I would suggest that local knowledge is pretty important too, so I think there is a high risk skiing a glacier you don't know even if you have the kit and some mountaineering expertise. The guide we were with last weekend offered to spend a couple of days showing us the ropes (excuse the pun) as far as basic ski mountaineering skills go and we are definitely going to take him up on it
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
BGA, if you do the basic mountaineering thing, I'd be interested in knowing what was covered. Local knowledge can be said to be important for anything, I agree that with glaciers it can be a great help to know roughly where the crevasses are that season though.
Arno, here we're fortunate to have both a very good wall in town and at the university a pretty poor wall that we have sole access to this gives the option to either go climbing or demonstrate ropework.
Swirly, if your talking about the awesome walls place a schoolmate of mine is an instructor there, I'll get in contact and see what the score is to do something like that.
I'd be up for that session though, its ages since I've done any climbing!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
As a caver I've demonstrated/practiced rope work/self rescue and rescued an 'unconsious' person off a rope in a number of locations. A school gym hired at nominal cost, a convenient tree, a disused railway bridge in a quiet location bolted to provide anchor points. Down a cave on a practice rescue.
Offtopic: kristof, AFAIK (a couple of mates work there) there's no courses like this at Awesome, it is a brilliant wall though. That said their new wall in Stockport is even better.
Dave Horsley, it's amazing how much a person weighs/how hard they are to hoist when offering you no assistance. If you need to move them any distance then you probably need a 5:1 pulley, 3:1 won't be enough. Although I've never tried it I've been told that you can't get an unconscious person out of a crevasse by yourself when walking on a glacier
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Swirly, could be right. 2 of us hoiked a 15st scouser out of a crevasse using a 3 to 1 system. it was hard work!
this was a practice exercise so he was conscious but he wasn't doing anything to help us
After all it is free
After all it is free
Swirly,
Yep, hard work and pulley systems help a lot. In a cave situation it can be made a lot more awkward by lack of space at the pitch head. I've had most experience with hauling systems to haul tackle when derigging caves - not quite as heavy as a person. Recovering an unconcious person stuck halfway up a rope is interesting - only ever done it in the gym thanh god. Prussik up past them, clip them to you and remove their ascending/descending gear from the rope. Change over to descending an abseil down with them attached. Soon find out how well set up your kit is. I've not done any rescue practice or much SRT for several years now, so may well be out of date
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I think with a Mariner which you can see here you get 1:5, baring friction
should be enough to hall someone out of a crevasse - apart from the crevasse lip may prove to be very problematic - possibly insurmountable. Probably why the rescue services carry jigs to bridge the crevasse.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
davidof, it looks like a 5:1 style set up, I'd have the prussics within reach but that's because I've learnt to do it when I'm anchored down, the system in your picture is probably easier to use: can pull more rope though before shifting the knots. Interesting point about the crevasse lip too, I've wondered about this in the past and I guess you just have to really really hope whoever fell in is with it. I suppose if they're knocked out you're probably going to be taking a ride in the big yellow taxi whatever happens but if there's something else wrong with them you'd want to try and get them out and treat it if possible.
Dave Horsley, much like transceiver searches it's a case of practice and hope you never need to use it for real. I've never done caving but made it a priority to learn the techniques after an incident a few years ago where knowing a simple assisted hoist would have saved a lot of aggro. Apart from just helping people out the other main reason for showing people is that it helps me get a fuller understanding of each system.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
davidof, One issue that is seldom mentioned and illustrated in your photo is the length of the rope normally carried by skiers. A 30m 7/8 mm "skiers" rope is common and when with some friends we came across a guide that had fallen into a crevasse, (his party were of no use at all) we fished him out with a "ski" rope. We lowered a looped end down to him about 12m, he was conscious he clipped in and 6 of us pulled him out by brute force, with a rucksack on the lip, no problem. However if we had to set up an elaborate belay and pulley system the rope would have been way too short (we did have a second rope in the group but didnt need it).
When I have practiced crevasse rescue I have used a 9mm 50-60 m rope, but unless I was specifically intending to climb or abseil I usually only carry a short rope! In a one on one with an unconscious victim you would be in big trouble. Its probably a good idea to practice with the rope you actually carry.
Swirly, as for knowing where the crevasses are, some parts of the VB are more hole than ice. Its sometimes helps when you know where the monsters are but falls into small ones are also common, I have seen a video of a man being rescued by the cham pghm team, he was not too far down but was totally jammed in a tapering slot, they worked for a long time but could not get below him, he died.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Hmm. Z pulley. A real rats' nest. I sure would want to practice that before doing it for real.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
achilles, great link to the Z pulley demo. I've not skied on a glacier yet (off piste) so I've never needed these skills, would love to give this a try out (for practice) sometime.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
achilles, good link, although I'm sure a Z pulley is only a 3:1 system. I'll check my notes tonight to be certain on that. These techniques are definitely ones to practice beforehand, the good thing about them is once you master the basics they are pretty much common sense on how to set them up, however, in the heat of doing them for real it would be nice for it to almost be second nature.
jbob, good point about rope length, this is particularly relevant to skiing as when walking it should be set up to prevent anyone falling too far anyway. You don't need to have the prussics as far apart as in the diagram but the further apart they are the less shuffling about is required. For reference an assisted hoist needs the victim within 1/3 of the rope length.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I've never asked our guides if they carry pulleys as well as ropes. Do they generally?
Was talking to a French friend of a friend who told me about leading a group once, walking roped together (on skis) on a glacier. He fell in a cravasse and despite being roped to the others it took them over an hour to get him out.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
snowball, lots do, but you can do almost as well with a karabiner. Friction does go up then if you try a high mechanical advantage rig, which is why my guides normally recommended sticking with 3:1 if at all possible - friction starts losing you quite a bit as you go higher.
Swirly, is that (the 1/3 rope length) true? I would have thought that applies only if you take the pulley right down to the victim. You can set up a 3:1 with a pulley on a prussic/autoblock or ascender, which you reset once the pulleys get too close together (as in the vid), and then all the extra you need is twice the length of the maximum separation of the pulleys (say 10m). The more rope you have the longer you can make that separation the less resetting you need to do (as you pointed out above).
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
GrahamN, the 1/3 rope length is for the assisted hoist, not a pulley system. In that system one end of the rope is tied to the victim it then comes up to the anchor and a loop runs back to the victim (clipped to them through a krab) who pulls down on one side of this and the rescuer pulls up on the other side. The main advantage of this is it's very quick and easy to set up, much faster than a pulley system but it does use a lot more rope.
snowball, I think most do but as GrahamN, says it's not essential for any of these systems.
EDIT: I suppose the assisted hoist is actually a 2:1 pulley.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Swirly, ah - OK. I was going to edit my previous to say that you clearly know more than me about this anyway . I think the assisted hoist is 2:1 for the victim's effort and 3:1 for the rescuer's effort.
> I've never asked our guides if they carry pulleys as well as ropes. Do they generally?
You'd be silly not to have a mini-traxion blocking pulley for either self rescue or for a hoist.
This is a slightly different setup to the one in my photo above, needs a couple of prussiks but is pretty easy to set up.
You can see the mini-traxion better in this photo (it may be easier to clip the mariner loop to the dead man anchor rather than to a prussik, this would save gear at the risk of interfering with the belay). You could use a tibloc rather than a prussik but you have to be careful they don't shred your rope.
If you try the same with a karibiner and autoblock or prussik you will need someone at this point to stop it jamming.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
A Petzel Tibloc is a handy mini very lightweight ascender that can be set up one handed a little quicker than a prussic. I carry a couple of loops and one of these during winter climbing.
Plas y Brenin do a good course - I think it's called Introduction to Alpinism - where you will go through all of this and more. If Caroline is one of the instructors, she winters in Chamonix as well.
I must get self-righteous for a moment.
Quote:
I really should learn about that sort of thing.... I just put on a harness when the guide lends me one, and learn nothing.
Any suggestions for courses? Trouble is, I don't want to learn mountaineering and I don't want to take up lots of a ski holiday to do it.
You are not learning "mountaineering" you are learning safety in the mountains i.e. being safe in the very place that you want to do adventurous things. You can choose how safe you want to be, but it seems to me you might not know how much danger you are in in the first place. Go back to the VB in summer and have a look at what you were skiing over a few months earlier. I guarantee you will take things a little more seriously after that.
Rant over. Any climbing wall instructor can take you through the basics in a single session. John Barry's books are good. The best outfit in the Alps IMO is ISM.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Incidentally, the DMM Revolver is brilliant for hoisting. Easy to fit, light and almost no friction. I carry one on a quickdraw plus a ropeman and have no problems extracting people heavier than me with a "z" assist.
I really should learn about that sort of thing.... I just put on a harness when the guide lends me one, and learn nothing.
Any suggestions for courses? Trouble is, I don't want to learn mountaineering and I don't want to take up lots of a ski holiday to do it.
You are not learning "mountaineering" you are learning safety in the mountains i.e. being safe in the very place that you want to do adventurous things. You can choose how safe you want to be, but it seems to me you might not know how much danger you are in in the first place. Go back to the VB in summer and have a look at what you were skiing over a few months earlier. I guarantee you will take things a little more seriously after that.
Rant over. Any climbing wall instructor can take you through the basics in a single session. John Barry's books are good. The best outfit in the Alps IMO is ISM.
I meant what I said - I only want to learn stuff which might be useful as a skier - I do not want to do a mountaineering course.
I take safety very seriously and have skied on glaciers (obviously only with guides) for about 25 years (and a few times walked onto them in the summer) - but guides do not normally teach off piste clients any of the rope work this thread has been discussing since I introduced the subject. Which is why I said I wanted to learn - I don't know why that should upset you.
I was thinking I could ask my fellows on my next ski holiday if they would be OK to spend a few hours on one of the days with the guide learning rope work. They might well say yes but I doubt they would want to spend more time than that out of the few precious ski days of winter. My question was about alternatives.
I'll try to get one of John Barry's books.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
. I think the assisted hoist is 2:1 for the victim's effort and 3:1 for the rescuer's effort.
