 Poster: A snowHead
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There is a lot of whoo haaa on here about the necessity of getting DIN settings correct to prevent leg injuries - one of our EoSB injuries has there's set on the same as me - 5, yet look at the descrepancy in our stats:
Our injury = height and weight 5' 7.5" and 10 st 4 lbs. 5 weeks skiing under their belt - has apparently always had DIN set to 5 for all her skiing
Me 5'9" (not so different), 14st+  . 4 weeks skiing under belt, shop has set my ski bindings to 5 due to relative inexperience - I go 6 directly to the chart.
So there we are on identical skis (both model and length) approx. the same height, approx the same age, but with me nearly 4st different, on the same binding setting of 5. Something doesn't seem right and our injury says that the hospital tells her that the injury was caused because the skis didn't release when the crash happened.
Then there is me, I skied the whole week and mine released just once when I crashed hard which seems about right.
Would the experts on here agree both our binding settings are correct - could a proportion of extra ability (they have skied a bit more than I have and could be a more competant skier) make up for a 4st shift in weight?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Megamum, What boot sole lengths for the two of you ?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rjs, Oh, OK thought we had enough info - I'll have to PM and find out - will be back once I have an answer.
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It is all about the amount of leverage applied through te leg before it releases. Which is why the sole length makes a difference.
It isn;t so much experience that tey are catering for when reducing your bindings, but ,more skiing style. If you are a fairly nervous skier, which I suspect from some of your postings does aplpy to you, then you will tend to ski more slowly, and when crashing will create lower forces through the leg, but for a longer time. So you need the bindings setting lower, in order that they will release before the longer acting but lower pressure can damage your leg.
If they set the bindings as low for a more confident skier, who will usually be traveling faster, then there is too much risk of pre-release (i.e. coming out of them when skiing normally, thus causing a crash). It is always a compromise, and they just have to hope that the usually faster skier doesn't have a crash at a time when they are skiing slowly, because the biondings might not release in time then.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Mine are always set to 4 and have never yet come off in any fall. I was told that despite the basic chart suggesting 6, 4 was appropriate for me with the setting adjusted due to age( ) & inexperience/cautious style.
Interestingly this chart suggested by Johndub above gives a setting of 4 for me and 5 for MegaMum assuming a similar sole length (mine are 315mm) and both being in the novice category, though if MM is now in the "average" skier type category it would suggest a setting of 6.
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Megamum, I suspect the potential 'flaw' in your correlation is the relationship between T's knee injury and Din setting despite what the hospital may have said.
I'm a little lighter than you .. a little taller ... boots are a 260 shell ( Atomic) ie small ; I probably ski a lot faster as of the last year ( others can comment ) and love short turns .. but both sets of skis are set at a Din 4.5/5 ( ostensibly due to knee history) . I suffered a knee injury in VT but it was a (stupid) very slow speed hockey stop fall and the binding didnt release.
My point being that the 'nature of the fall' could be responsible for the lack of release rather than the setting.
Incidentally I have never suffered from an 'early' or pre-release ( is it a misnomer ??) ... only time i've stepped out of my skis is skiing badly off-piste..... and dont intend changing my settings next season.
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I read somewhere (can't seem to find the report at the moment) that the biggest risk group for ACL injuries are middle-aged unfit novice females skiing in the backseat which puts a lot of load on the knee. It was even suggest that in some case that the ACL fails which causes the crash, not the other way around.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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spyderjon, sounds about right to me
there's a certain amout of science and a little bit of art to DIN settings. and they don't guarantee that they will come off when you want them to - the correct setting just increases the chance that they will. i ski on 9.5/10 so i am reasonably confident that they won't pop off unexpectedly when i am skiing fast but i am a bit paranoid about what might happen with a slow twisting fall. thankfully they don't happen too often for me!
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spyderjon, do you mean that skiing with the weight too far back puts strain on the knee ligaments irrespective of whether you fall? Also you mentioned me specifically "middle-aged (no, no, please no!!) unfit female novice" - what ought such a person do to improve fitness in a way that helps protect knees? I think I ski with the weight too far forward and am having trouble straightening up my stance because it feels unbalanced when I do - should I not be so concerned about this just yet? - is weight too far forward better than too far back?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Butterfly wrote: |
| I think I ski with the weight too far forward and am having trouble straightening up my stance because it feels unbalanced when I do - should I not be so concerned about this just yet? - is weight too far forward better than too far back? |
From the little that I saw you ski I don't think you ski too far forward. You seem well centered on your skis, although looking further forward rather than at your skis should be something you focus on (if you excuse the pun).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| looking further forward rather than at your skis should be something you focus on (if you excuse the pun). |
You're not the first to say that & I am trying to, honest!! Think the tendency came from the feeling that if I looked at the ski tips they wouldn't cross!
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| Butterfly wrote: |
| Think the tendency came from the feeling that if I looked at the ski tips they wouldn't cross! |
Very often in skiing your instinct makes things harder than they need be. If you don't look where you are going you can't react to changes in the terrain and snow, making it more likely that things like crossed tips will happen. Your instinct might be to keep an eye on what those pesky skis are doing, but it will be much easier to manage them if you know what you're skiing through.
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You know it makes sense.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| easier to manage them if you know what you're skiing through. |
indeed & I am now actually focusing on the snow ahead & not the skis themselves, but only a few metres ahead as yet.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Butterfly wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| easier to manage them if you know what you're skiing through. |
indeed & I am now actually focusing on the snow ahead & not the skis themselves, but only a few metres ahead as yet. |
It will happen as your confidence builds. If I'm struggling I occasionally catch myself looking at my skis, so don't feel alone in your battle 
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Poster: A snowHead
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How many of us know what our fully kitted out weight is with heavy boots, backpacks, layers etc on. .. i know i sure dont...
Dumb question but do DIN settings assume "dripping wet" weight or "fully kitted out" weight?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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My take on ACL injuries are when you get severely back seat to the point of ass contact, and you attempt to stand back up. POP goes the knee joint. I sit down, miles easier, and you get face shot 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Slow twisting falls seem to be the killer to my mind, so it is a problem for lots of people. As you ski harder and faster and in more difficult stuff you have to weigh up not losing a ski against losing one and it can be a quandry.
Mine are about 9, but I dread the most a slow fall...caused typically by someone skiing under your ski on a very slow path and they can't ski slow enough or can't wait etc ......that will dump you on your back PDQ.. I almost throttled the t****t who did that to me.
So too fast..high din, too slow, low din... and all the other forces that come with it. I seem to remember this type of thread.... the chart is a guide, you should mostly know how you ski and at what speed you want the thing to come off. All difficult things when you haven't skied much.
I do a binding test..most for testing it works and gettng a feel of the force required...but it may be that peeps need to set them light and do an easy run...if they pre-release... which is just a term for them coming off when you don't want them to...then, they need to be tighter...but then we get into another can of worms.....do you feel confident messing around with bindings..!!!
It is difficult.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| johnDUB wrote: |
| My take on ACL injuries are when you get severely back seat to the point of ass contact, and you attempt to stand back up. POP goes the knee joint. |
i think standing back up from this position is OK so long as you do not twist the knee joint at all. your ACL is very vulnerable in this position and any twisting risks the dreaded POP.
as you say, if you find yourself in this position, best to take the fall. better still, don't get in the back seat!
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johnDUB, according to that link i should be a 3 but i've always been told i was a 5.
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Arno, I wonder whether girlies' knees are more prone to twisting due to their collateral ligaments usually being closer together than those of a guy of the same height.
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taratibu2, That link reckons I should be on 2.5. I think I will leave mine on 11
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Butterfly, Squats and lots of them should help strenghten up the legs
My binginds are currently set at 8.5 Im 5'10 and 90kgs (I promise its mostly muscle  ) Bindings are set to release with certain types of falls so even if you fall they will not always release.
Point is that if they are set relativly low 3-5 for the average person they will release when nesecarry and as silly as this sounds people need ot learn how to fall! You see racers and pro skiers they go limp when they fall if there is no hope of recovering it. If there is a chance of recovery they will hit the deck and then get back up a la herminator in one of the races this year
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rjs, after my injury, if i ski again i think i'll set mine to fly off at the thought of falling over 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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T's boot length is 294mm, mine is 305mm if that helps - they don't sound much different to me
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Megamum, The boot lengths are both in the same range on the chart (291mm-310mm).
Both of you end up with a different code for height and weight, the setting to use should be the lower of the two. For you the height code is the lower one and the Salomon chart gives you a DIN setting of 5.5, for T weight is lower and would give a setting of 4.5 but she is right on the borderline between the two ranges.
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JT,
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Slow twisting falls seem to be the killer to my mind, so it is a problem for lots of people.
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This is certainly my experience. The only time I've felt like my knee has been seriously strained in a fall was at a virtual standstill. I had just started side slipping a few metres down to a friend, went over the basket of my pole and fell like a total eejit. My ski only popped off after my leg had twisted to a very uncomfortable position, tweaking my knee pretty horribly. At that point I was very glad I keep my bindings on a fairly low setting.
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You know it makes sense.
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I ski on a 6 setting - 168cm, 72 kg (2 down since the bash Yippee!), sole 285, 7 years, fairly hard and fast on piste. The last time I checked the charts, they gave me an 8 - but I also have dodgy knees so I keep it on 6. I've never prereleased on that setting, but what I'd like to know is - if one is going to err on bindings, is too low always better than too high? Apart from pre-releasing, what other risks are there in keeping them low?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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vetski,
Not sure how others should look at it, but for me, it is a question of consequences. What happens if I fall here... do I want a ski barrelling down the slope and a major hassle retrieving it...if I can retrieve, what do I do on one ski ..etc etc.
For the majority of the time, I'll not want to lose a ski and when I stack, it will be a big one so the forces involved will rip the ski free. Most of the time you'll be looking to recover to a pre-release isn't helping here...
You have to get a feel for these things and work what suits you and your skiing. To my mind, it just isn't as easy as x+y=z.
But I have heard that people with dodgy knees tend to err on a weaker setting as protection of those knees is the over-riding factor.
But you can have a pre-release toss you into a face plant and you wreck your shoulder for example...when you would have gotten away with it had you stayed upright... Toughie....and your call really..
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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vetski, DIN 6 is the correct type I setting for you. You don't need type III settings just because you ski fast.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm sure it is all more black art than science. However, a relevant issue for women at least does seem to be hormones, they cause relaxation of certain bones in pregnancy, T and I have read and discussed together that the risks of knee injury can vary in the month for women due to hormones - is this risk real?
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rjs, can you explain Types I & III, and any other types out there?
Also should I have my off piste skis on the same setting as my piste skis? My inclination is to turn them up a notch.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Megamum, yup, I've heard the same - that the release of a certain hormone during pregnancy, oxytocin I think, softens and relaxes connective tissues and ligaments. I don't think time of the month has an effect (apart from the possible risk of falling over if you're hit by a massive cramp!)
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vetski, The skier types are described in the workshop manual at the TGR link johnDUB posted.
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| JT wrote: |
| Slow twisting falls seem to be the killer to my mind, so it is a problem for lots of people. |
This is something that got me thinking after the sad reports of injuries during the EOSB...
If I ski slowly, like when teaching lower levels/beginners, or skiing with said folk on a non-teaching basis, should I be on lower settings then when skiing fast and hard?
Especially when teaching, concentration is shared a lot between own skiing and observing the guests, which will likely influence the chance to tumble in unfavourable ways... Yet it will be at low speed, which makes it likely there won't be enough force to whip off a ski at the higher settings normally associated with a higher level skier.
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rjs, found 'em, ta. I'm II - III. As long as lower DINs don't increase my risk of injury, I'll stay on the Type I settings.
Am trying to download the 07/08 manual, and it's just not happening. Is one supposed to do something special to download from a web host?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Ronald, When you are teaching - I'd have thought you chances of a fall ought to be nearly zero...... I used to keep my plastic teaching skis at a lower DIN than my racing ones, until one day - after a lesson, another group had a course set up... I was invited to have a go, and as I'd just sharpened my edges, that's what I did...and as I tried to stomp the last gate out of the way......broken thumb.
So (IMV) changing DIN settings because of the group you have seems like a very risky procedure !
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8.25 for me, but I usually ski on a 6 and the skis have never released unnecessarily. I know that hire shops are only allowed to set up to 6, but I'm happy to stick with what works.
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FAQ
can survive VERY hard falls without ACL damage because although the force applied is high, the binding releases quickly and the duration is very short. Low speed falls (of the kind I had coming off a chairlift some years ago) will tend to apply a lesser force but for a longer duration which may be insufficient to release the binding but sufficient to damage the ACL.
) anyone else seen these electronic bindings?
