 Poster: A snowHead
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I really don't understand the purpose of a shell, sure it's going to keep you dry and keep the wind off you, but I'm assuming it has no "warming" properties at all, and thus, if I skied in one, I'd also need to wear a fleece + my normal 1-3 thin layers underneath for times when I'm not skiing, ie lunching outside, and where the warmth of a jacket is needed?
Am I missing a trick?
cheers,
Greg
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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My jacket is very thin which suits me. I only usually need a base layer and very thin fleece otherwise I get too hot, if it is very cold I can always put thermals on. The plus point of a shell is that you can layer up or down depending on conditions. A few days this year I've only needed a t-shirt type base layer underneath my jacket. My salopettes are very thin too and I haven't put on leg thermals at all this year, it'd have to be very cold for that.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Yeah kitten thats the deal. It works out warmer.
i have two jackets. 1 for inside snow which is insulated which i use with a base only at chill factore and 1 for scotland. The latter being mountaineering shell, which i wear with fleeces and a base layer. You can add or subtract fleeces for warmth etc. And like fella bove, i use mountaineering xtr salopettes with a thermal fleece layer underneath, yet at chill factore.....
Depends where you go, temps, wind and what you want to do.
But I learned that insulated Nevica (don't laugh, it was early 90's and looked nice, though NOT a fartbag) jacket and salopette's didn't cut in scotland, where-as columbia's 3 in 1's an layers did and here starteth my mountaineering gear fad
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I think it also depends on how much the individual feels the cold. Personally, I would be overheating in a padded jacket on even the coldest days. As soon as I start moving around I warm up very quickly and sweat like mad!
As such a shell is ideal for me. It gives you much more versatility especially at this time of year.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| kitenski wrote: |
I really don't understand the purpose of a shell, sure it's going to keep you dry and keep the wind off you, but I'm assuming it has no "warming" properties at all
Greg |
That is exactly the purpose of a shell. It's "warming" properties are to keep the wind and rain off you. An insulated jacket is nothing more than a shell with a combined insulating layer. Shells are more versatile, insulated jackets more convenient and arguably more comfortable than a shell + more layers. It's down to personal preference, I have both.
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kitenski, i get too hot in an insulated jacket as the materials dont typically breath as well as say a merino wool or polartic underlayer and shell combo...
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kitenski, I get way too hot in an insulated jacket. Even at -12 I've only got merino + thin fleece + gilet under my soft shell.
Get the Stingray...you know you want to 
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kitenski, yep you are. I have skied in -20 to +5 this year, and having a shell and variable layers has allowed be to be consistently comfortable.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| kitenski, yep you are. I have skied in -20 to +5 this year, and having a shell and variable layers has allowed be to be consistently comfortable. |
what kind layers did you have on at the two extemes??
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kitenski, still not convinced? I used to ski in insulated jackets with just a short sleeve base layer and would sweat like the proverbial. In my quest to reduce sweat I bought a Goretex Paclite shell. Most of the year I was wearing one layer underneath, varying from s-sleeve merino to thicker micro fleece base layers and it worked brilliantly, very little sweat. In the cold I would wear a TNF soft shell underneath (more of a mid layer that could be worn as an outer layer). The Paclite got skied in for 2.5 seasons and is still in good condition, despite bush whacking and side riding rocks!
I noticed how much better the soft shell was breathing so last year I bought a Mammut Soft Shell jacket. It amazing. It's light, un-restrictive, very breathable and I've been happy with the waterproofness.
My normal layers now are a short sleeve merino (normal temp) or a long sleeve thicker zip up merino (cold) or a micro fleece base layer (very cold). With a fleece in my back pack for lunch / sitting around etc...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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kitenski,
this can be the tricky bit because it differs for different people.
To make a shell system work, you'll likely need; a good wicking base layer..I use microfleece.
A decent warmth layer..altho, this in itself does not have to be so very warm... but used in layers, it will breathe and insulate...again, I use a velocity mid, down to about -10 or so but with the sun out.
I also have a monkeyman 200 fleece for those colder days. This IS a warmth layer and you can use it on cold golf days.
For the shell, I use a paklite XCR jacket..very light.
I need to weigh up the weather of the day before deciding on the mid layer I use, and I always have an icebreaker in my pack, which I have never had to use in case I get it very wrong.
You can wear the base layer to breakfast and it will be warm but not hot..
You can walk down to the ski lifts in your layers and you will/should not be overheating...if you are then you'll probably run too hot during the days skiing.
The whole point about layers is that the garments you use should be wicking, plus the fact that they tolerate flunctuations of your body temp because they breathe better. If you don't use wicking layers, then there is probably not a lot of point in shells, IMV.
If the temps are very up and down, then you can just take a layer off or add it. You'll need a pack for this..but I always carry one anyway.
On the one occasion I didn't use a pack last year....my paklite was colder, so don't underestimate the work or protection you get from a 16-20 ltr pack to your body heat.
If you bootpack or skin then you'll overload any layers, and have to adjust..this is where you want the things to dry out in when you rest up for a few mins..which is what the wickers will do. Pit zips are good too on the shell.
What works for me is a 3 layer sys as above...and I don't consider myself immune to the elements or a very warm running person.
I think my system will run to -15-20 with the heavier mid 200 fleece...and then I have the Icebreaker for beyond that.
I sold my normal XCR shell because I was never wearing it.. I favour the paklite.
All decent labels should publish garment weights.
If you feel the cold, then you'll have to use too many layers which I think will diminish the effeciency of the system...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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kitenski,
| Quote: |
I really don't understand the purpose of a shell, sure it's going to keep you dry and keep the wind off you, but I'm assuming it has no "warming" properties at all, and thus, if I skied in one, I'd also need to wear a fleece + my normal 1-3 thin layers underneath for times when I'm not skiing, ie lunching outside, and where the warmth of a jacket is needed?
Am I missing a trick?
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Agree with all the comments so far but maybe "the trick you're missing" is that insulated ski wear can only really be used for cold conditions. Layering means that any of the items can be used throughout the year individually or in combination as waterproofs, warm layers, wicking t-shirts etc. That means you buy less gear and don't look like Franz Klammer in the pub!
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| JT wrote: |
For the shell, I use a paklite XCR jacket..very light.
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I've never heard of Paclite XCR??? I've got both Goretex XCR jackets and Goretex Paclite jackets, but they are different materials. I've also recently acquired a Goretex Proshell jacket, which I believe is the replacement for XCR.
FWIW I normally wear a very lightly insulated XCR jacket for most of my skiing. It's fine from -5C down to -20C with a light Merino base and mid layer, but can get too hot at 0C+ with sun etc. How hot or cold you get obviously depends how hard you ski etc. My wife wears a down insulated jacket all the time and rarely gets too hot in it. Shows how different we all are!
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You know it makes sense.
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I've moved away from both insulated and shell jackets this year to gore-tex softshell with either 1 or 2 layers underneath.
I've realised it's not important to have a jacket that's more waterproof than anything on the planet, as i never ski when it's raining. I only ski when it's sunny or snowing so you don't need a jacket that you can go swimming in. Soft-shell is the way forward. So many benifits to it. Breathability, comfort, warmth (it's got a very thin micro fleece layer bonded onto the back of it)...
Unless you need a waterproof shell jacket for using in the mountains for walking/mountaineering when you're not skiing, or even for when you go to the shops and it's pissing it down, then i really do recommend you check out some softshells.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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uktrailmonster,
I am looking at the jacket now and it has a ripstop GT fabric for the most aprt and then a heavier...but not much... fabric for the places for wear and tear. That is shoulders, lower back, and elbows. It has XCR on the ripstop sleeve and also inside the jacket, so maybe a combo of things.
Softshell is fine but don't get drenched in it...so not all mountain IMV
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Poster: A snowHead
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shoogly, same here. 1 or 2 layers under a decent softshell covers most eventualities. I always carry another warmth layer too, just in case.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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JT, totally agree about soft-shell not being all mountain... but for the majority of people out there who ski, it's more than enough and they'd probably be a hell of a lot more comfortable in it. When we were in Banff last week, i had a merino base layer, a mid-layer and softshell. It was -12ºC and absolutely (forgive the term, but we heard an american "dude" say it) "puking" snow - 27cm in 3 hours - and my jacket was superb in those conditions.
Like any other jacket though, you get poor examples of it and the Goretex brand will more than likely be the best to go for.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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lol..
this is how our conversation went with the american "dude" on the chair at Lake Louise - he was mid 40s by the way...
us: "how's it going?"
him: "yeah maaan, it's good maaan.... mind you, this place sucks duuuuude. A woz just over at revelstoke yesterday duuuuude, it was pukin snow maaaaaan, i mean, seriously, pukiiiiin snoooow maaaaan. I was skiing powder up to my baaaaalls maaan. You duuuudes should get over there maaaaaan. This place suuuuuucks compared to there. I mean it's nice mountains and that but no shiiiiiiiiit maaan, it was pukin' snow, serious amounts maaaaan. And then later at the bar, i got talkin' to this hot chick man, she was married an all, but she was sooooo hot duuuude. Left her at the bar and got out to my car in the morning and she had left a note with her number on it.... i'll defo be giving her a call when i get home. But seriously maaaan, it was puuuukin it..."
We all then got off the lift and he said - "later duuuudes" but seriously, get yourself over to revelstoke - it's pukin' maaaan"
Us: "Cock" 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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right, I still don't "get" shells 
Tried a few on, felt like I was wearing a crisp packet!! Tried on the Arc'teryx Stingray, very nice, but the hood doesn't stowaway or remove, so still hunting for the right jacket.....Stingray was very close....
Cheers,
Greg
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kitenski, try a few softshells... you will not feel like you're in a crisp packet.
what kind of crisp did it make you feel like?
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yeh the Stingray is a softshell, and I did like it, apart from the hood (and the price tag). So now to find one like that, but with a removable/detachable hood.....
Monster Munch I reckon......
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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JT - I'm not a hood person, not worn one in many years of skiing, however in case I'm wrong...I want to unzip it or stow it away, neither of which appears an option on the Stingray 
I tend to wear a turtle neck when it's snowing, so that prevents snow getting down the neck....
cheers,
greg
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| kitenski wrote: |
Tried a few on, felt like I was wearing a crisp packet!!
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Did you try them with proper baselayers or just over a T-shirt? Some shells do feel like crisp packets, particularly when not wearing much underneath, but some of the newer Proshell ones are softer. My new Marmot Proshell feels a bit more like a softshell, but then some of the other Proshells I tried on were notably more crinkly.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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over a t shirt and over a mountain equipment goretex thin fleece that I'd possible wear when skiing.
Hmm, will look out for a Marmot Proshell.....
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The one I've got is a Marmot Glenmore (from EB), but you probably won't like this particular model because the hood is fixed.
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You know it makes sense.
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Try Mountain Hardware 
I use an MH shell over an MH fleece - superb IMHO.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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lbt, I was skiing that combination (with either a Field and Trek sort of own brand Polartec 100, or NF polyprop, base layer). Felt fantastic, easily the best all-round comfort I've ever had. Carried an extra fleece in case of really cold spells (or accidents - you start getting cold if you don't move for a while). Got a bit nippy in <-15C and >80 kph winds, but no problem in almost any other conditions.
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Poster: A snowHead
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kitenski, yes - I wish that the hood on my arcteryx sidewinder would stash, but it doesn't.
To answer your earlier question. I wear a thin long-sleeved baselayer, and if it is cold a micro fleece and sometimes a softshell gilet, either of which stash easily. then the shell. If it is really warm, or I am skinning - I might end up wearing baselayer plus shell, or baselayer plus gilet only. I have also tried a MH softshell jacket under my shell which works well - and my wife who gets really cold is toasty with merino baselayer, microfleece, softshell then shell.
But I tend to run hot in any case - I only switch from fleece glovers to proper ski gloves at about -8.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Can shells survive -30 downwards? I don't like the bulk of my down jacket, but I've skiied one -52 day this season, and a fair few -30... would be nice to just make do with a shell though. I've not had a high quality style one before, just a Bonfire one...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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well I've been into loads of shops, tried plenty on and decided on a Arc'teryx Stingray
Now need to find a decent micro fleece at a good price in the sales.....
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When it is truly brass monkeys, I wear a Rab Vapour Rise mid-layer on top of my base, and then my shell....I remain nice and toasty warm as a result
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| kitenski wrote: |
Now need to find a decent micro fleece at a good price in the sales..... |
TK Maxx is your friend
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| Quote: |
as i never ski when it's raining
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Mmmm - well snow turns to rain low down. I was very glad of my 60,000mm shell this April after some higher powder turns it was torrential rain back on the run home.
Being a sweaty devil the joy of layering is that moisture management is much more effective than in a padded sweat retaining jacket, and I feel less cold when I stop in my Helly base (merino on cold days), polartec 100 fleece and shell, and never seem to overheat. Although I have always carried an extra layer I have never needed it, down to -25oC.
interestingly Mike Stroud and Ranulp Feines did their polar sledge haul in -60 + windchill in no more than a base layer and a (cotton) shell. Mind you they did need to put a tent up when they stopped for a breather!
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| kitenski wrote: |
well I've been into loads of shops, tried plenty on and decided on a Arc'teryx Stingray
Now need to find a decent micro fleece at a good price in the sales..... |
Don't get anything synthetic. Natural fiber is the way to go.
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| PJSki wrote: |
| kitenski wrote: |
well I've been into loads of shops, tried plenty on and decided on a Arc'teryx Stingray
Now need to find a decent micro fleece at a good price in the sales..... |
Don't get anything synthetic. Natural fiber is the way to go. |
Surely the only natural fibre is wool? However apart from this all the other layers seem to be synthetic...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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kitenski, merino wool is a good choice. It has excellent wicking qualities, so it will draw the sweat away and help keep you dry. And obviously it's a suburb insulator too.
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| kitenski wrote: |
Surely the only natural fibre is wool? However apart from this all the other layers seem to be synthetic... |
err. Cotton is natural fibre too. As is silk.
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FAQ
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mine works great and I wouldn't buy a jacket without a hood personally